June 22, 2009 01:00 PM
The meaning of Neda
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Melody Moezzi, a contributor to the Huffington Post, explains the deep significance of martyrs in Shia culture. In Farsi, they are now saying on the streets of Tehran "Give me the power of Neda."
It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.
-George Carlin
WHERE in the terms of service did I violate? Asking for the brutal death of a murderer? Of for his unending degradation? How is that a violation of TOS? Reprint the line from the TOS that I violated.
It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.
-George Carlin
Towards anyone. It will automatically be violated.
It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.
-George Carlin
You write a whole lot of words and all you are saying is something that has been said for centuries. I want revenge.
Revenge solves nothing. Revenge breeds revenge. Listen and learn. I believe that peace and justice are the goals of most of the people that contribute to this forum.
If you want to make this world a better place you don't do it with a gun you do it by standing shoulder to shoulder with like minded people and tell your oppressor, "you can't kill us all, for every one of you kill ten will sprout from the bloody ground upon which we stand."
When my dad would hit me I would say, "hit me again-you will feel better!" And he would, but eventually he stopped because he knew he wasn't hurting me anymore, just himself.
There is a light and it never goes out! Never!
"you can't kill us all, for every one of you kill ten will sprout from the bloody ground upon which we stand."
Yes, they can kill you all. First, they keep you doped with sex and drugs and rock and roll, so you consistently favour convenience over content. Then they let society run the machine over the cliff. When that gets too sticky, the rats will turn on each other, and the nukes will fly. Not all of them. Just enough to trim the population and economy down under the depletion curve. In the process? You pay to pull the wool over your own eyes. And send your kids off to some war to steal yet more resources to keep this idiotic suburban lifestyle going.
Maher was right the other night: you don't need a third party - you need a first party. The USA has a corporate party (the Democrats) and a wingnut party (the republicans) and no party to represent the interests of the working class or the environment or other species.
and in history, the light goes out. Often. There is nothing that says it has to continue. We are in the holocene extinction. We are the cause of the holocene extinction. We could easily go extinct within 10 generations. We just blew one generation on the excesses of the Clinton disaster, only to drive it into the wall with the Bush Junta.
So, we have, maybe, nine left if we continue this pace.
The folks on top WILL kill you. Cheerfully. With guns or nukes or mob fear or whatever it takes to maintain the class structure.
Rather than invite the wrath of the over zealous monitor, I'll just leave you with an observation:
People who don't believe in guns end up working for people who do.
It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.
-George Carlin
You need to find help. We know you are angry and upset but this acting out isn't helping you or us. Your name suggests maybe there is a substance abuse issue. There are people in your community that can help you. Find them.
I am more than capable of taking care of myself. I am a fairly successful person, and am doing quite well, thank you very much.
Your psychologism is typical of the liberal: a pathologisation of personality.
simply: I am not a pacifist. That is not a pathological condition, any more than the sheeplike condition you advocate is. If you can't wrap your head around that, that is your problem, not mine, and I would further add that your ideas simply don't cohere with how the world works.
This is not to say it is all red in tooth and claw, but that namby pamby hippie pacifist nonsense is just as detrimental to the survival of the human project as the reichwing psychosis it seeks to oppose.
So, no, you are still wrong, and my points still stand, given your inability to refute them.
It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.
-George Carlin
Ummm...there already is a book with the title Liberalism Is a Mental Disorder
Written by a conservative.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
and the guy who wrote that is an idiot. However, liberalism is an effective method of neutering actual dissent. By giving people "voices" they actually improve the cooptive properties of capitalist hegemony.
Read: Negative Dialectics by Adorno and Horkheimer.
Per your other comment: I am not arguing for a thread on gun rights. I would just note that I was in Switzerland last month, and those people are armed to the teeth. So, it's not the presence of guns that's a problem, it's the culture that they appear in that's the problem. American culture is a sick and diseased disaster, so that's the complicating factor...
It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.
-George Carlin
Mon, 06/22/2009 - 17:05 — tweakerbelle
Your psychologism is typical of the liberal: a pathologisation of personality...
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Sounds like a psychologism that's a pathologisation of personality as well...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Mon, 06/22/2009 - 15:20 — jhunter99844
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Fairy dust?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
You seem to be arguing for another potential thread on gun rights.
At best all you can achieve is an ignoracio elenchi.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
would be the violation you're wondering about. It is not done here.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
The rules are easily accessible.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Iranian citizenry...I knew once the dictatorship started their brutal crackdown on the protesters...this was gonna happen...
Yes... and in doing so they are repeating the mistakes of the Shah against the very people who engineered his downfall. You'd think they'd know better -- after all, they were participants in the last round. I think there may be something in the underlying logic of dictatorship that forces this sort of thing.
Ahamadinejad is morally finished, cheating and then murdering his own people for power. Being the coward that he appears to be, this Muslim Bush would have happily used Obama's interference as a convenient scapegoat...so Republican.
It is up to the Iranians to do what we failed to do...stop an ignorant, violent madman from causing further great harm to their Country.
Of course I wish the Iranian people safety and freedom in these troubled minds I I sincerely hope that no one comes to harm as the protests continue. it is obvious that Ms Moezzi is very emotionally involved and she has every right to be so. It must be a horrible situation to know your family half a world away may be in danger.
BUT...
All this is no excuse for glorifying martyrdom for whatever cause it may be. When Ms Moezzi says that 'the martyrs will go straight to heaven' at the end of the segment, it made my stomach turn. The terrorists of 9/11 also saw themselves a 'martyrs' who would go to heaven.
Religious fundamentalism and extremism - even when recruited for public unrest and the fight for democracy and freedom - is indefensible and I do hope Crooks and Liars are not endoring this view with this post, because it sure seems as if you are.
Again - I applaud all Iranians who are voicing their opinion and power and who are taking to the streets, risking their lives. But cries of martyrdom and divine justification are not to be applauded coming from either side.
Well, I agree with you, but this is a longstanding cultural as well as a religious tradition among the Shiites. Neda will be remembered for hundreds of years and will inspire people to fight for their rights and freedoms. So I (very reluctantly) have to agree with Ms. Moezzi ... in this case, Neda's martyrdom will serve a good cause.
I don't think C&L is endorsing the concept of martyrdom, but is just giving us a look into what's going on in the hearts and minds of Iranians right now.
I think that there is a place for martyrs in the hearts of all people who long to be free. People died while trying to break away from England, and as Abolitionists, and as labor organizers, and fighting Hitler, and fighting racism, and some of us may yet die for a better America. Maybe martyr isn't the right word, maybe patriot or human or friend is better.
Whether you call them martyrs or freedom fighters, people will die for their freedom and what they believe in. Call it what you will, it's been happening for thousands of years.
Typo.
were killed by the authorities while protesting for farmworker rights as "martyrs." Some of our UFW martyrs who were killed in the violence were Latino, some Asian, some Middle Eastern, etc. None of their deaths were used as justification to commit terrorist acts, only for the UFW and those of us who support them to be brave and keep fighting, especially since the UFW is a non-violent movement inspired by Gandhi and Dr. MLK.
Please avoid automatically associating with Ms. Moezzi said with terrorism.
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
Why is it that I get a feeling that somehow the CIA is playing a role in all this.....after reading Sy Hersh's New Yorker article from last summer about how the CIA was trying to foment unrest from the minorites within Iran.
of Iran is that the minorities live in the countryside and the Perisans live in the cities. Are large busloads of minorities being trucked in to participate in the demonsrations?
I dunno, probably not. But since the whole Iraq debacle, I don't trust anything the MSM has to say anymore.
Is that true, that the Persians mainly live in the cities and the minorities live mostly in the countryside? I don't know, as I have a pretty limited understanding of Iran's internal demographics myself. Though I have read that many people of Tehran are young and very westernized and better educated than the people of the countryside who tend to be more religious and would support Ahmadinajad. That's probably generalizing quite a bit, but it seems to follow the pattern in the US too.
Maybe I've become too cynical to realize that this is truly a grassroots uprising not entirely dissimilar to Eastern Europe of '89. And indeed, the authorties of Iran are killing innocent protestors.
ultimate goal to be? And how did they allegedly foment the unrest, you speak of? That damn CIA, can be one sneaky devils. Thanks
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Well, the CIA's goal would be "regime change", but as mentioned in a previous post maybe this is a case where the people are doing their best to see to it is done without any outside help.
Only time may tell? ;)
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Must be listening to Khameini and Ahmedinejad too much. Those two would like nothing better than this to be a CIA operation. But the CIA isn't slick enough to create something like what's happening in Iran. Desire to create a revolution is a world away from actually doing so.
As this rages on, more and more I am able to empathize with the Iranian people, and this was no exception. It brought me to tears.
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
The Iranian's Basij to our Blackwater USA aka Xe.
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Isn't it amazing how the people of this supposed "Evil Empire" take profound action against a perceived wrong while us "holier than thou" American's sit idly by why the oligarchs steal billions and billions from us while denying basic rights and freedoms.
If I was Obama, I would be show these protests to Health Co. CEO's, Wall Street Titans, DINOs and any other person standing in the way of positive political action. Or more likely, we need to show these to Obama.
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. " Frederick Douglas
I don't think you understand what martyr means in Persian culture. Terrorists have hijacked (no pun intended) the term so that Westerners associate martyrs with bombers. This is not the true or correct meaning of the term. In fact, anyone who stands up for a sacred belief, in the name of justice, or in defense of another who is harmed or even killed is a "martyr". So, Joan of Arc was a martyr, MLK Jr was a martyr, Gandhi was a martyr...etc.
I don't care who supposedly 'hijacked' the term martyr. Anyone standing up for a 'sacred belief' should immediately be questioned, not applauded and celebrated as an automatic 'martyr', no matter what the cause.
To stay within the context of the above video:
If you watch the entire video, you will see that Ms Moezzi clearly says that 'God is on our side'. Those five words are the most dangerous words in any language, no matter what the cause. If you believe you are absolutely right, by the grace of God, then anything you do to further that cause is permitted by God. A very dangerous belief IMHO.
So again, while I do support the Iranian people in their struggle at this point and wish them safety and success, I will not support an opposition that adheres to the same blind rules of faith as the current theocratic regime.
I just looked up the etymology of the word. My American Heritage dictionary sez:
Middle English, ultimately from Late Greek martur, from Greek martus, martur-, meaning "witness."
I certainly hope the Iranians can get away from their theocracy and form a more secular government, but I doubt if they can do it all at once. Therefore, I would support even a partial step in the right direction on the part of the Iranian people.
Rather than peacefully turn over power to less theocratic elements, the established power structure chooses instead to force their will on the people. They could have taken lessons from republicans who spend every waking moment undermining the will of the people instead of openly confronting it.
of my Iranian heritage than I have been over the past two weeks!!
I have to admit, I started crying when she mentioned Neda. Her voice cracked and that was it for my composure.
That I sincerely hope Neda's cold blooded murderer and those who enabled that heinous criminal behavior are found and brought to swift and certain justice.
Sounds a tad boddhishatva
Or righteous one
Or saint.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
What would make her a mahdi?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Neda effectiveness lies in that she was unarmed when she was shot, and so young.
And the idea that governments always resort to violence against their own people to maintain order has been refuted by history. Although there may've been a little scattered fighting, the Soviet Union era Russia, and East German Communist state went down pretty much in the face of street protests like the ones going on in Iran.
They lost the faith of their military, or the military simply didn't want to attack their own citizens.
Already both sides in the Iran embroglio are trying to claim Neda's martyrdom as their own.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
movement, the last thing they should have done is shot a young female student in cold blood.
I'm only a year older than she was, and already I find myself able to relate to her in a way, the elation she must have had about the upcoming election, etc. and it leaves me wondering what would have happened to the youth here if our election hadn't gone well.
I can just imagine how much rebellion the regime has fomented among the youth against them with the death of Neda.
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
...killing Neda indeed, seems counterproductive to say the least. That is why I'm an admirer of, [mudshark's] theory, and that is... "Whom ever shot her, could have shot anyone. But they chose a woman."
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Someone shot this young woman in cold blood.
Sun, 06/21/2009 - 12:07 — mudshark
Whom ever shot her, could have shot anyone. But they chose a woman.
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[ http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/scarce/ne... ] Thanks
Study the symptoms not the virus...
More apropos, the Shah went down through street protests not unlike what's happening now in Iran. The way it's been explained to me is that the Savak would stage a bloody crackdown, and make some martyrs. The revolutionaries would then hold mourning rallies for them... which would be met with more violence, and create more martyrs. Lather, rinse, repeat until victory.
Ishalla!
We should immediately "question" people for standing up for beliefs in equality, justice, freedom? Like I said, Persians consider MLK, Ghandi, Jesus and others who were killed while doing good works martyrs. It's not like MLK and Ghandi wanted to die, or sought death--they were murdered, like Neda. I think your racism against Middle Easterners is clouding your judgment. I don't need to look up in a dictionary what it means to Persians to be a martyr as I am Persian-American.
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