December 23, 2009 05:00 PM
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take care of the home front first Bern, nothing wrong with that
Would someone explain to me how funding health care clinics is going to help a person who needs treatment for cancer or for other long term medical issues? In any event, to qualify for free or low fee health care programs doesn't one have to establish insufficient means?
Well, what if I'm cash poor, but I have been willed a small piece of property? Am I supposed to sell it and spend out of pocket until I'm reduced to abject penury? And just how does this differ from what I'm faced with now?
I'm reaching the age in life where these concerns don't seem so far-fetched. Given the choice of medical bankuptcy or willing the little I have to my son, it's easy. I'll self-immolate.
to your son to make sure you're not under any time constraint, usually 3-5 years ahead of time.
Obama: "Remember, we're keeping score here brother."
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
I think he is the best senator we have but he is wrong, once this passes it will be very hard to get the momentum back. Just like how Obama has hurt the anti war and progressive movement, this bill will kill real health care reform.
I sincerely believe that the body snatchers have the real Bernie Sanders, whom we may never see again.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
He's a coward and he knows it.
If he single-handedly killed this despotic POS bill people would be dancing in the streets celebrating.
Tea Baggers and Progressives would be doin' the Locomotion....
Cats and dogs would be getting along....
And he'd STILL get re-elected!!!
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
that is not the Bernie Sanders I know. He doesn't cut and run. I don't like to have to call you out on this, but you're wrong Abbywood.
I wonder whether, if Bernie threatened to filibuster, whether we'd suddenly see Olympia Snowe and/or Susan Collins break ranks with the Republicans to pass the bill without Bernie's improvements.
And it would be touted as bipartisan and wonderful, and President Obama would do everything he could to get Snowe and Collins reelected, and trash Sanders as the guy who tried to kill reform.
Everyone is equally entitled to the pursuit of happiness. Wasn't that once self evident?
Said it obliquely in another thread too.
Sanders wasn't their only option on a filibustering vote breaker, just the one who's price was the least odious.
Replace Sander's price with what Snowe or Collins would have asked for, and the bill would still exist and be passable, but it would look like what exactly? Not sure I want to know the answer, but I'm sure WH & Senate Leaders know the answer to that question.
Sanders got his little victory and doesn't want to be the Leftwing Lieberman and Kill Bill
Look this thing is bought, paid for, wrapped up with a pretty bow and tucked under the tree.
Sanders is the brave sort but he's not suicidal.
Obama's got everybody shouting victory.
Why do I feel like throwing up??
"I can't keep doing this on my own with these...people."
They reported as a fact that this Senate bill will "make it easier for thirty million Americans to get health insurance". What a crock.
It mandates that 30 million Americans must buy this crap or face penalties.
The corporate media are getting behind this piece of crap.
You'd never guess who helps pay their salaries.
tells CNN it's time to kill the legislation and to "start over":
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/n...
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
I just saw the clip from Obama.
It seems like the "30 million Americans" line is the one they're going to use.
Us against them.
I guess the time has come for progressives to create The Coffee Party. Let’s use the current militarization of Colombia by the military industrial complex and Obama as a pretext to join forces with the Teabaggers. Let’s create a new, grassroots movement that at least will be taken seriously. Let’s face it: if what’s just happened in CONgress is the pinnacle of “progressivism” and liberalism, God, AIG and Corporate America must be laughing their collective asses off this Christmas.
he folded like a deck of cards like the demos always do.
or should I say liberals.
america these folks dont represent you they represent the money.
the rest is just pretend to get your votes.
I told all of your they would fold way back when.
follow the money.
capitalism has to create corp fascism and capitalists must get to the level of controlling congress and the white house.
that is the name of the game.
next third world status so they can make you work for third world wages.
what do you think capitalism is designed to do.
the black saviour turned out to be another capitalist in the hands of corp america.
he knows who butters his bread for reelection and it aint you or me.
the system is corrupt naw lets keep it and bitch and bitch about the politicans and others.
the last thing the capitalists want is for americans to look at the capitalist system.
no need to worry dumbed down america does not have a clue what is happening to them and why.
All of the so-called liberals in Congress are phonies. These people constantly rant and whine about Wall Street and the GOP and the conservatives in the Democratic Party, but then turn right around and support those groups on EVERY piece of legislation.
I can tolerate Republicans, even though I don't agree with them, because at least they adhere to their beliefs. I'm not going to tolerate a liar, and that's why in the next election this is one progressive who's going to vote a straight GOP ticket. It's time for some payback against the Democrats, and I hope the true liberals and progressives out there will realize that and use their vote to let the Democrats know we aren't going to tolerate their garbage anymore.
Vote down the bill and what have you got?
Nothing.
Ummm....
How about a freakin' fresh start where Obama comes out of the gate asking the American People what WE want???
There actually have been several polls that reflect the fact that the majority of the American public at least want a "robust public option" to compete with the insurance corporations that currently have a stranglehold on our collective throats and are but a few short weeks away from KILLING US!!!!
I figure that with the huge deductibles and co-pays and premiums people cannot afford that Americans will continue to basically go without any coverage. Sure they may be in compliance with the law to avoid the penalty to the IRS and a potential jail term if they cannot pay, but if they get really sick, even if they ARE in compliance, many won't be able to afford to USE THE DAMN INSURANCE!!!
Better to start over and not have practically the entire Democratic base's panties in a twist.
Plus, once the REALITY of this legislation starts hitting Main Street it will be the END OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
On the other hand, maybe it would be better to vote the sucker in. The END OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY CAN'T COME SOON ENOUGH FOR ME.
They don't deserve ONE of our votes.
Time for a third party.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
"Vote down the bill and what have you got? Nothing."
Yep. But at least its not a mandated, graft-ridden nothing that the whores can brag about.
"I can't keep doing this on my own with these...people."
I'll say this to everybody who wants to throw this bill in the trash. If it get thrown away we will not see any kind of health care reform for at least another 15-20 years. You may think this bill is not worth it but it is at least on the table if it gets passed. I think Bernie realizes this. We have been with nothing for 70 years since FDR first proposed it. this may be the way to get to where we want to be. Slowly but surely we can build. To get to where we are now just will not happen for a long long time. Once this thing is passed people will get used to it and want to make it better as opposed to trying to get something from scratch again. Remember that the same kind of right wing people who are against this thing now were against Medicare so many years ago but today they would not give up their medicare foe anything. This is a start. A means to an end. At least in my opinion and I thing Sanders may see it this way too.
screwed over again and again and again and lied to in the process.
Sorry.
What you say is B.S.
There would be NO SANE REASON to wait another 20 years to create a 40 page piece of legislation that says, "Medicare will be increased to cover all Americans as of January 1, 2011."
There. That wasn't so hard to say.
Try it.
It kinda just rolls right off your tongue.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Yeah, the Medicare for all thing is my preference.
Easier said...Unfortunately.
"I can't keep doing this on my own with these...people."
Nation’s Largest RN Organization Says Healthcare Bill Cedes Too Much to Insurance Industry
Pro-Single-Payer Physicians Call for Defeat of Senate Health Bill
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
Sorry Abbywood but I disagree with you. If it was so easy why didn't get done before? Clinton's plan was not good enough so it got tossed and now it has been 16 more years. Sure there is no sane reason to wait however amount of years but who in the Republican Party would you call sane? And everybody is saying that the Democrats are going to lose some seats in November. Do you think for one second that it will be easier with more Republicans?
You know what Abby? I have been saying Medicare for all long before Gov. Dean started saying it and it rolled right off my tongue just as easy then as it does now. The thing is that it never made it far enough to pay my health care bills. No matter how easy it rolls off the tongue it does not make it any easier to get scum like Olympia Snowe to vote for it. So don't tell me what I say is B.S. It is a better foundation than we have ever had.
Also Abbywood I was not saying that you should get used to it. I was saying, and I thought it was pretty clear, that the idiot right wing Palinistas will get used to it... Well maybe not the Palinistas but a lot of the more normal right wing will. I know there is no normal right wing but I think you get the idea. The same kind of right wing who say "keep the government out of my Medicare."
(Nice name BTW)...
This is the part of what you said that I was calling B.S. on:
"Once this thing is passed people will get used to it...." - Captain Kangaroo
It is my heartfelt belief that NO ONE will "get used" to being FORCED to purchase for-profit insurance that is unaffordable and ends up being "non-insurance" when the person gets sick and cannot pay the deductible/co-pay etc.
When people are forced into Medicaid because the magic "Exchange" tells them that based on their income that is the only program they are eligible for and they are then forced into the "estate recovery" plan against their will, I do not believe for one New York minute that anyone will get "used to it".
The American people will not get "used to" paying high premiums or penalties and then going without any coverage or worse yet, jail time for non-payment of penalties.
There will be hell to pay if this bill passes and the Democratic Party and Barack Obama will own the bill.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
I agree with what you said here. My point was that the idiot right wing will see that this is not what they were being told and then will want to make it better and take out the crap you are talking about. I don't know if that will happen but I can't see these assholes going for single payer because they are too stupid. Look, they think Palin is great and that Dick Army has their best interest in mind. Stupid is too good of a word for them. I just look at how long it took after the Clinton health care deal and even after Nixon almost got something with Kennedy. This is at least something new. In the end I agree with what you hate about the thing. I just think that it can be changed easier than starting over. Maybe I am wrong.
"Stupid is too good of a word for them" , LOL , well said and very true .
Insanity , it is what it is , there is no understanding it .
After a cursory explanation of what this bill does regarding health care and its implementation, from a foreign perspective it looks so retrograde that I fail to see how it can be spin as a "victory" under any sort of objective estimation.
It seems that the US and the rest of the industrialized world passed each other going in opposite directions at some point not so long ago. You poor blokes live in a society which treats you like a source of revenue and not citizens.
Your declaration of independence served as one of the inspirations for countless socialist progressive movements around the world, what the bloody hell happened to you guys?
The original Declaration of Independence read:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among those rights are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit Of PROPERTY ..
"Property" was changed to "Happiness" to ensure the enthusiasm of the working class in Colonial America.
From its inception the US has been a 2-class society .. workers and overseers. What was at stake in the American Revolution was whether the overseers would continue to work for the King, or for themselves.
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
Hernand wonders, "What the hell happened to you guys?"....
Here's a very brief stab at an answer to your question:
If the health care legislation passes, it will only be a "victory" for corporations and the U.S. Congress who are the corporations' bitches.
The American people are, by and large, ignorant cowards and selfish fools.
This is why we (yes, I AM an American too) continue to march along and vote for these corporate crooks and liars and run home to watch the teevee and pretend all is well with the world when it quite clearly is not.
I believe that the corporations tried an unsuccessful coup against FDR and blew it. Then they went back to the drawing board and figured out a way to enslave every last one of us without ever firing a shot.
Now it is up to the American people to awake from their collective slumber, turn off the freakin' teevee, walk out the door and get together with their neighbors to do some serious chit-chatting about where we are as a society, how we got here and how we intend to change it.
The rest of the world can clearly see what we have become.
Obama's pummeling of Yemen and drone attacks in Pakistan which are totally against the wishes of the Pakistani people, our continued support of war crimes being committed by Israel with our weapons is but the tip of a very ugly ice berg known as the United States of America.
That, I believe, is pretty much the straight answer to your question.
Anyone on this thread who would like to correct me, please...be my guest.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
What is their interpretation of "affordable"?
Their homeworld was a place called Earth, located in an uninteresting part of the galaxy. They had an expression: pride goeth before a fall. Their pride was their undoing. I know. I was there....They did not listen, of course. Arrogant men never do.
and like Franken, he is one of our best Senators and that's the rub, they are both Senators. Senators are used to compromise, it's the only thing they know. It's not in their nature to draw a line in the sand, and stand by it. I'm in the camp with Jane Hamsher of Firedoglake. I would rather lose fighting the good fight, then cave in for a bill that is nothing more then a give away to the health insurance companies. If this bill wasn't to pass, it doesn't mean the fight is over.
diamondmc
from what ive always read about him. hes there to do work for the people and thats something to admire. yes indeed if someone wanted that sort of health care then moving to Vermont might just do it.
when Jerry Brown becomes governor.
With Donna Smith and the CNA leading the charge, I think we can make it happen here.
God knows we dare not use The Mass Plan as the template.
The legislation that has been crafted in the House and Senate is The Mass Plan on Steroids:
www.masshealthlawtruth.org
Besides, who wants to live in Vermont and freeze his/her ass off??
I'm having a great time here in So.Cal.
I'd rather go for a bike ride on Christmas day up toward the Palisades than be chipping ice off my windshield.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Sanders is the most honest , principled , decent and common sense man in DC , to call him a coward or sell out or what ever is flat wrong , apparently you don't know what he's about or his voting record . He has to deal with reality and I fully trust that he AS USUAL did what he thought best for the country ... not what was best for Bernie Sanders . Some times you are caught between and rock and a hard place and it's a lose or lose situation . He's not done fighting for us .
Insanity , it is what it is , there is no understanding it .
and for anyone calling for him to be replaced, what the hell do they think they'd get in his place? Someone better? That's just flat out insane.
Bernie Sanders and most other Democratic politicians are nothing but closet Republicans, and it's disingenuous to keep calling these people cowards or compromisers when it's clear they're working for the GOP. Think about the fact that on EVERY issue of the last 30 years - from Reaganomics to the wars in Iraq to NAFTA to gay marriage to the latest healthcare fiasco - the Democrats have found a way to give the GOP and/or corporations a win, while the American people have been given the shaft. There is no way this would be happening if these people weren't working for the GOP, no way. There would be some bill the Democrats would filibuster or otherwise block, and yet it never happens. Clearly politics in this country is nothing but a game of good cop/bad cop, with the Democrats playing the role of the good cop to the Republican bad cop.
Of course you have to wonder why liberal voters keep excusing the behavior of phony liberals like Sanders. Maybe it's because they're also hiding their true identity.
Sanders, elected to the Senate as an independent, describes himself as a democratic socialist (small d, small s). He has NEVER run for public office as a Democrat, and with the exception of 1994, when the Democrats endorsed him, Sanders defeated both a Republican and a Democrat in all of his elections to the House (elections of 1990 thru 2004); No Democrat ran against him for the Senate seat in 2006.
Unless he joins the Democratic Party, Sanders will never be the chairman of a committee. To get a committee seat, Sanders promised to caucus with the Democrats to elect the Senate leadership. He's the most progressive Senator in the history of that body. The Senate needs 99 more Bernie Sanders, not one less.
Please do a little research.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
As you point out yourself, Sanders caucuses with the Democrats, and even voted for Harry Reid as majority leader. He's clearly a Democrat in all but name, as proven by his votes on HCR and most other bills. He's also deceitful, as he implied over and over he wouldn't vote for a bill that didn't contain a public option:
"I strongly suspect that there are number of senators, including myself, who would not support final passage without a strong public option" - Senator Bernie Sanders, from his own website
http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=b...
I suppose you think Barney Frank is a socialist too, given all the reforms he's pushed through his banking committee.
...short interview with Sanders in Mother Jones (unless you think Mother Jones is a phony liberal rag) from November, 2006, shortly after Sanders was elected to the Senate.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
You do yourself and the rest of us liberals a disservice by ranting on like a Freeper ranting about Obama being a Muslim socialist Nazi. I can't imagine what would ever make you happy but I assure you you will not find it on this planet in your lifetime or the lifetime of your grandchildren or great great grandchildren.
I have been following Bernie Sander's career for a long time, and I don't think that there is a more honest and honourable man in American politics than Bernie Sanders. More than that, he has proven over the years that he is also informed, intelligent, imaginative and tough.
Bernie sold out for 10 billion for community health centers across the country. Sweet. Who is going to pay for them? Wouldn't be coming from taxes now would it? The insurance industry will make more than that in the first quarter after enactment of this bill. 25-30 million new mandated customers at between 100 to 200 a month or around 72 billion for the year for the industry. Nice going Bernie. And the high cost of insurance does not come from the uninsured. The uninsured are young and healthy. The few that have problems are not causing the profits to go down. The young and healthy are going to pay for decades before they have the slightest chance of needing health insurance. The insurance companies are laughing all the way to the bank and it is us who are going to pick up the bill for it all, including Bernie's health centers. Bernie you sold us out. Solution: Next election=all new people. A kid out of high school or a senior with one foot in the nursing home, people of integrity will do a better job then any of who we got there now. They have all failed us and have given our work, our savings, our taxes and our pensions to the fat cats running the banks. Vote everyone in the current federal government out. Even Bernie.
First off, it's a pipe dream that we're ever going to get all of them voted out. And if you think attacking the most progressive Senator we've got out there is going to help the cause, you're sadly mistaken. When you start talking about who you're putting your time, money and mouth behind that might have a chance at defeating any that are already in the Senate and what you're going to do about it, you let me know will you? Talk is cheap.
...wouldn't have voted for this bill.
If he's not, then who is? Again, spare me. You throw someone like Bernie under the bus and there's no one left.
He just voted for a bill that forces American citizens to pay a private insurance company for their very existence. Again, someone who is really a progressive would've never voted for such a thing.
Politicians simply labelling themselves socialists or Democrats doesn't cut it. If they won't vote against bad bills, then they aren't really what they say they are, or what the media says they are.
It is thinking like yours that creates the current situation. If we don't wrap our collective brains around what is really needed, what is really needed is not going to happen. Peoples have committed to total change of governments and made them happen. That's why the Boston patriots threw the tea in the harbor. Sort of changed the way everyone was thinking about the tax on tea. Maybe why the US is so committed to drink coffee even today and the Brits still drink their tea. So Spare Me, if you want to keep drinking the Kool-aid, I can't stop you. It is time to chose another way of thinking and do the hard work effort to actualize it.
Like Heather said, instead of throwing the most progressive senator we have under the bus it would be wise to go after other DINOs who are worthless and would rather fight for Dick Cheney or Sarah Palin than the people in the bread lines than go after the people who would fight FOR them like Bernie Sanders.
The Senate health care bill ONLY benefits the insurance industry. Why is that so hard to understand. A vote in favor of the bill only supports the transfer of wealth from those of modest income (31 million mostly young people) who have very minimal needs for health care because for the most part, young people are healthy. (That is not to say that there aren't some with health care needs and they should be supported by government health care program so they are not left out of having needed services).
Without a public option, without removing the mandate, without removing the industry's protection from anti-trust laws, the American people are, once again, going to get financially abused by this legislation. Don't be like battered or raped children who are apt to believe that Daddy will change and really is not too bad, cause he said things are going to be different and better. This bill DOES NOT make things different or better. It is the same old, same old of corporate abuse of the majority of the people. Wake up and do a little critical thinking. The only thing that will make things change is enough people people saying "Oh no you don't. No more and never again." Without industry regulation or without industry competition we have signed up for health insurance that is "too big to fail" that will deliver the same sort of service we are now getting from banks: no money or money at huge cost for those who need to buy a home or an education or a new car. And I am sorry, I like Bernie, and Bernie voted to support this transfer of wealth from those who don't got to those who have too much.
...pre-existing conditions who are currently denied coverage. The Senate bill also caps premiums at 8% of income for those with no pre-existing conditions, while currently premiums average 18% of income for the same group. The Senate bill also mandates that 85% of premiums must be paid towards actual health care, slashing overhead spending by the insurance companies, which is now in the 20%-30% range, capping it at 15%.
Is this bill perfect? No. But show me any perfect bill that came out of Congress that didn't have the support of 90% of the country. Our constitution was written in such a way that the minority can effect legislation: Compromise is inevitable.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
"NEW YORK (Reuters) - U.S. healthcare stocks rose in premarket trade on Thursday after the U.S. Senate approved President Barack Obama's healthcare overhaul, backing sweeping changes in the medical insurance market and new coverage for tens of millions of uninsured Americans.
Hot Stocks
The passage of the bill removes a degree of uncertainty for investors, who have been trying to assess the likely impact of the bill on industry profits.
Shares of in Tenet Healthcare (THC.N) rose 4 percent, Aetna Inc (AET.N) shares gained 1.5 percent, while UnitedHealth Group Inc (UNH.N) shares added 1.2 percent."
Hey Andy, I would take a 4%, 1.5% and 1.2% increase in value of holdings in a day, everyday and all day long. So do you still think your senators love you or do you think that they just might love Tenet, Aetna and UnitedHealth more than you? The bill will deliver bad and expensive health care coverage that will be mandated. Again the transfer of wealth from the have-nots to the haves in this bill is transparent. Without a public option, without the removal of the mandate and without ending the industry exemption from anti-trust laws, the public has nothing but the monthly bills for the health care industry's profits.
...it is too risky to kill this bill now. A noticable diference between reps and dems is clear. Bernie is a realist, he made the bill, flawed as it is, better.
The community health center provision will be a major money-saver on preventive health care and primary infection control. We have several in our area, and I use one. Uninsured, Medicare, and Medicaid pay a two-dollar copayment, others pay 50% or full pay. This keeps the diabetics and blood pressure patients under supervision so they don't end up at the hideously expensive ER and keeps the kids' infections treated for the same result. At this point, the main problem the ERs have is dopers inventing complaints to get pain pills prescribed, and stoners don't care what happens to anyone else as long as they get their oxys and hydros.
The "free" preventive-care provisions will not be free. They will be included, with a hefty markup, in that compulsory health insurance.
Obama has just become a hostage, if we are smart. His re-election just might become contingent upon a public option passage. The netroots may want to start rattling his cage now.
Explain all he wants, Sanders has sold out the socialist cause. Take a look at who benefits by the pork attached to the bill, including special favors for states like Nebraska and Vermont. It's simply business as usual, with very few if any provisions for lowering overall heath care costs.
"Respect for the rights of others is peace." --Benito Juarez
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