Howard Dean: Kill the Senate Bill
Howard Dean reiterates what he said in an earlier interview today--Howard Dean: "Kill the Senate Bill":
In a blow to the bill grinding through the Senate, Howard Dean bluntly called for the bill to be killed in a pre-recorded interview set to air later this afternoon, denouncing it as “the collapse of health care reform in the United States Senate,” the reporter who conducted the interview tells me.
Dean said the removal of the Medicare buy-in made the bill not worth supporting, and urged Dem leaders to start over with the process of reconciliation in the interview, which is set to air at 5:50 PM today on Vermont Public Radio, political reporter Bob Kinzel confirms to me.
The gauntlet from Dean — whose voice on health care is well respsected among liberals — will energize those on the left who are mobilizing against the bill, and make it tougher for liberals to embrace the emerging proposal. In an excerpt Kinzel gave me, Dean says:
“This is essentially the collapse of health care reform in the United States Senate. Honestly the best thing to do right now is kill the Senate bill, go back to the House, start the reconciliation process, where you only need 51 votes and it would be a much simpler bill.”
Just one question:
What policy can you, my health insurance company, give me that covers nothing but gets me out of the proposed fines for being non-insured?
And yes, they will sell that policy....
drive by any country club golf course. See a lot of older men in caps and striped shirts. 99% of them lazy, old rich Caucasians. Doctors, lawyers, bankers, CEO's, and guys rubbing up to boss.
Precisely!
What it boils down to, in essence, is extortion. The very same kind of extortion that the USA Mob and Triad and every other Organized Crime Syndicate have been involved in since Their inceptions. Each Mom-and-Pop grocery store, florist, shoe shop and every other sort of small business in USA cities and towns large enough to support Organized Crime has been subject to this same treatment, when unchecked by Law Enforcement. It is just extortion never ever so blatantly seen at the Federal Legislative level since the creation of the Federal Reserve and the arguably illegal inception of Federal Income Taxes.
Related? Guaranteed that it is related. The Federal Reserve and the Wall Street Mobsters regularly organize cycles of Inflationary Bubbles and Recessions to "shear the sheeple". a.k.a. "giving a haircut". This method has been legalized ever since the "Creature From Jekyll Island" was loosed upon the USA - the Crime of the Century. A new century requires a new crime, since unending interminable warfare only feeds the Military Industrial Complex, and the greed daemon that exists in the hearts of every Plutocratic Capitalist and their Congressional minions can never be quenched.
Organized Crime has become Too Big To Fail.
KILL THE BILL.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-- John F. Kennedy
That bill doesn't resemble anything close to health care reform. It's a buyin for the frickin' insurance companies and their toadies in government.
Kill the bill!!! and start all over again to give the American people what THEY want. Eff the politicians!!
Michael Steele better pay attention. Howard is bucking for his job as head of the RNC.
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
And it is a great bill: for Repugs
You cannot expect the fox to vote for pro hen legislation.
End bribery and get our democracy back. Keep bribery legal and get more of the same.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. It is crazy to think that bribed officials will work for us.
Maybe the public sucks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk
to prop up the last "to big to fail" industry that's about to fall on it's ass. The Corporate Medical Pharmaceutical Insurance Complex.
That's really the bottom line.
Oh you optimist you.
Just wait till public and private pensions explode.
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
You mean the illusion they actually still exist?
Exactly.
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
...for not pretending that further debating this bill means anything besides a waste of taxpayer money.
It's obvious why he was belittled by all the political circus clowns of both parties. He is the only one speaking for the people at the moment.
Stay away from small planes, Howard!
Get some body guards and keep your itineraries as private as possible.
...bi-partisanship! And, you meeeeeeeeean liberals, and.... Wah!
Seriously, he's right, and since he's right for the right reasons, I won't defend the bill. It wasn't nearly reform enough to begin with, but now it seems actually regressive in many respects. Politically, it makes sense, too. Since this is largely the GOP and ConservaDems' faults, you can push harder for a more forceful option. I'd like to believe that we could pass a sensible single-payer option through reconciliation but I know that's further off...
Yeah...and maybe Harry Reid will turn into a real Senate Majority Leader too.
Good luck with that.
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
...give me a better option. One that doesn't involve the left wandering the political wasteland for another 30 years, preferably. I mean, outside of praying for Reid to quit and hand the reins over to Sanders and for Lieberman to get kidnapped or something...
You don't. You want change? Take to the streets.
You think all this is happening during the holiday season by ACCIDENT?
Let's see...violent teaparty protests during the summer (with VISIBLE sidearms), which scared the majority away from protesting.
Now, the holidays. People too busy with shopping for the kiddies to portest.
So many of you youngsters still haven't figured it out. EVERYTHING that happens in Washington is calculated...even the timing of events.
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
what is the street address where we can find you?
"The deal has to be negotiated in the real world, not on some idealized Aristotelian plane. We understand that. A 100-percent deal may be impossible."
Famous "Reality Based" Commentator
Which country?
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
The Teabaggers didn't scare people from protesting. I think the majority has lost the will to protest. The only way to beat organized money is through organized people. This country will not get any meaningful reform unless the people get back the mojo to make it so.
the current bill MANDATES that all Americans buy insurance from the corrupt and evil insurance companies. How is that an improvement over the current situation?
When governement forces citizens to pay corporations...that is right wing tyranny.
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
100% agreed.
Well, Switzerland and Germany both have private insurance companies that provide universal care.
That's not what this bill would provide, though, especially since it provides no real price or cost controls, an asinine taxation structure, subsidies that might reach a maximum value of 30 cents on the dollar. Profits will go up, service will go down, because there are no real controls.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
...the exact point at which I stopped supporting the bill. It's not an improvement, it's a good part of the very regression I was talking about. My point was that, short of revolution, waiting for the dems to do the right thing is all we have. Which sucks. But we can't fall into the "They're all secretly against us!!" conspiracist trap.
totally for themselves. They are not even trying to hide this any longer.
.... sold us down the river without a fight.
There is no reason we should have 'leadership' whose default position is rolling over and begging.
Good piece
Glenn Greenwald here
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Obama is the main reason for demise of meaningful hcr. He's been fighting for a privatized, for-profit system since the get-go.
My guess is that Rahm got on the phone to Lieberman last weekend when it appeared that Medicare expansion and a not completely privatized bill might pass, threatening future corporate campaign contributions. Obama always arranges to have a convenient cover whenever he's about to screw over the middleclass.
Commission to do the dirty work for him re deficit reduction - cuts to SS and Medicare will not be off the table.
Conveniently, the Commission would not be making its recommendations until after the 2010 elections. Based on Obama's record of coddling the plutocrats and screwing the middle class, I think we can bet on the Commission "opting" for cuts to Medicare and SS, while not raising taxes - or at most making token tax raises to give the appearance of being a bipartisan decision. You just know when Obama is looking for a cover, he is about to screw the middleclass.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1259113044343...
and get it over with. Get rid of the entire government and all of the politicians (an unnecessary expense) and we can just pay rent to the corporations that own the country. Sweet and simple.
If the Obama administration does this, this will split the Democratic convention and President Obama will face a challenger to run for re-election!
We need a strong president. One who patiently practices what he states. If the president's potential influence were exercised, we would have single-payer.
Eventually another 48% will come around. And if not, he still has the corpse of the Corvair to circle over and crow about.
"The deal has to be negotiated in the real world, not on some idealized Aristotelian plane. We understand that. A 100-percent deal may be impossible."
Famous "Reality Based" Commentator
... to be visible NOW, not just every four years.
And, really - I'm not terribly impressed by a guy whose position was basically, "Well, maybe after four years of George W. Bush, they'll wise up."
You need to do some homework on Nader, and the grand duopoly.
The Democrats and Republicans are two factions of the same Corporate Oligarchy. Ralph Nader has fought the powers that be since the early sixties with great success.
They have tried again and again to destroy him. They never could but they did manage to misinform a great number of gooey minded liberals into hating one of the only ones out there who could never be bought.
Look at the venal nature of the Democrats, lord what a bunch of swine.
But there are a few other greats in the department of critics, Chomsky, Parenti etc.
But Nader after the Clinton treachery decided to run himself. I doubt if he will run again, maybe for the Senate, between he and Bernie Sanders there would be a renewed interest.
Q - What does Nader do between elections?
A - He fights bad ballot laws in lawsuits with the very well funded DNC (and RNC) on ballot access etc etc.
Here
Excellent Ralph Nader interview from March 27, 2009: DNC lawsuit, etc.
Here
Grand Illusion: The Myth of Voter Choice in a Two-Party Tyranny
Theresa Amato here
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
"... gooey minded liberals."
Now I'm certain I'm not voting for the man, if this is what I can expect from his supporters.
...if you consider yourself both gooey-minded and liberal; otherwise, I'm sure she wasn't talking about you...
I said NOTHING about hating Nader. I asked why he wasn't more visible.
Instead, I got a lecture about how corrupt the system is and how this vast conspiracy is keeping the people from seeing the genius that is Ralph Nader.
Study the record of the lawsuits that the duopoly bring against anyone that goes against them.
The Greens or Nader, or anyone.
It won't matter who comes along, the Corporate Duopoly will attempt to shut them out.
So much for our imagined democracy, Ralph Nader the person is not the question.
It is the question of democracy.
It is an illusion.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Just as much as the Democratic and Republican Parties attack each other, they are more than willing to work together at keeping any other party out and very efficient at doing so.
Alice just earned a place on my ignore list, because she again insulted my integrity and intellectual ability.
Or, rather, I've just had my fill of politics of late. I think it's time to absent myself from C&L for a time.
provides some interesting links and insight but I've always failed to understand how attacking progressives from the (extreme) left is going to have any positive effect.
I think that I might need to shut down too.
I am not going to argue whether the terms liberal and progressive are interchangeable, or if it even matters.
I am going to continue to point out the inconsistencies between stated principles and accepted outcomes.
The socialist position is one of complete egalitarianism.
The more we level the opportunities and conditions for a fulfilling life in this country, the better I will like it but it doesn't matter to me personally because I am old and I am not going to mouth platitudes that sound like they come from a dead religion.
As it stands now, we have inequality of wealth and disproportionate opportunity that rivals the worst of the third world.
We hear happy talk from the Democrats about the common man, but talk is all it is.
They can't even outlaw usury, I live in a district where even something so obvious would make a difference.
It is corporate totalitarianism and being sanguine about that is not on my agenda.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
The Oligarchs thank you!
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Read murder mysteries to help you to feel that getting justice is possible. Alice tells the truth, which can be hard to swallow when it makes you feel helpless. But that goes away, and then you just get pissed. The clarity that comes with that feels REALLY good.
Gooey minded liberals vote for Democrats by the legion and look what that gets them!
Adolph Reed
from 1996 reprinted at Common Dreams here
I use the term liberal as Marx and John Maynard Keynes used it.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
power is largely limited to suggesting what legislation he thinks is needed and he neither writes nor funds it I think you overestimate the president's influence on the process. It wouldn't matter how progressive the president might be given the makeup of the house and the senate.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
Read the Glenn Greenwald piece here
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
I agree. The Greenwald piece is spot on.
From the update part of the piece:
"It's also worth noting how completely antithetical claims are advanced to defend and excuse Obama. We've long heard -- from the most blindly loyal cheerleaders and from Emanuel himself -- that progressives should place their trust in the Obama White House to get this done the right way, that he's playing 11-dimensional chess when everyone else is playing checkers, that Obama is the Long Game Master who will always win. Then, when a bad bill is produced, the exact opposite claim is hauled out: it's not his fault because he's totally powerless, has nothing to do with this, and couldn't possibly have altered the outcome. From his defenders, he's instantaneously transformed from 11-dimensional chess Master to impotent, victimized bystander.
The supreme goal is to shield him from all blame. What gets said to accomplish that goal can -- and does -- radically change from day to day."
President Obama can't have it both ways.
control over Bush in his last term. Just kidding. I already know the answer.
... it's the only choice left after it's been cut to pieces and stomped on by our 'bipartisan' friends in the Senate. (Yeah, we're lookin' at YOU, Joseph I. Lieberman.)
Of course, this is being cast just like the 'if we withdraw, the terrorists win' - why is it that Democrats continue to let the GOP and their shameful tactics win the day, time after time?
Stand up for US instead of your corporate donors. Put some iron in your spines. Hold the goddamn line for once. If evil triumps when good men do nothing, it sure as hell has a field day when good says, "Oh, but we don't have the votes. And we need to be bipartisan."
What we need is someone like Alan Grayson to submit a proposal that will put every last quisling member of Congress on the same playing field as average Americans if this bill passes. No more Cadillac health care plans - they get the same choices, the same caps, the same drug costs as we do.
Or Demokrans. take your pick.
If he doesn't get one, after all the hype, energy, "debate," etc, before the SOTU, he'll be a lame-duck after only the second week of the second year of his ONLY term...
It won't prohibit his eventual defeat, in 2012, when the GOP/God crew (Sarah/Jebbie?) recaptures the WhiteHouse and probably the Congress...but it will prolong the illusion...
I ain't voting for him in 2012. Simple. As. That.
I'm looking for an independent (a REAL independent, not a toady like Lieberfucker) who has the courage to push things through, and who won't sell us out the moment his hand comes down after the oath of office.
He almost made it against Bush.
... but he has to split from the Democra-weasels.
I'm gonna write in vote for Baby Ruth or Phil McCracken.
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
The reconciliation process may not be what Dean claims it to be. I assume he knows more than me but every time I hear somebody describe it it seems that you cannot do what we would want. I would really really like to see a definition of how this process works.
Every time Progressives capitulate, Republicans get an erection. Why did we win last November? They have zero respect for our bipartisan escapades...they are laughing at us.
Dean is correct. This used toilet paper is yet another insult to Progressives.
If the bill gets killed we get what Clinton got. This is all so screwed up.
It's precisely the result that BOTH parties wanted.
The corporations are smiling.
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
Yes. And remember Clinton's bill was 16 years ago. Just about a generation. One of the Senate talkers yesterday said we have to get something and down the road we can add to it and change it. That thought may be the one we need to hang on to... That and never forgetting LIEberman... EVER!!! Bringing down LIEberman is the next objective. That scum piece of shit needs to be fed to the sharks (figuratively speaking of course).
... has Joe's obit.
...with no contents. Either way we get nothing...if we accept this, more bullshit will come our way.
Stand up for principle.
... it doesn't matter whether the cat is alive or dead, all you need to know is there's gonna be one hell of a stinky mess when you open the box.
.
One of our problems is we got too close to 60 votes. We got close enough to say, "If this and if that we get this." It would have been better to have only won 58 votes including LIEbeman and Nelson and Baucus.
and shove it up your ass.
But boycotts do more. With the energy of people withholding their money, changes are accomplished. Ask Taco Bell about that tomato thing.
We simply need to stop running to the doctor for every little thing and EVERYBODY go to the ER instead... of course, we need to learn a lot more about eating well and keeping ourselves healthy first.
"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman
Here is a very good example of what can go wrong. You just told people what to do. While I agree with what you wrote I know some people will think you threw a monkey wrench into the bill with, "of course, we need to learn a lot more about eating well and keeping ourselves healthy first."
I suggested flooding the ERs weeks ago.
You want action in this country, you gotta make noise.
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
... but where I live people actually need the ER and I refuse to deny someone else urgent medical attention because I'm making a political protest.
This approach might work at a WalMart return line, but if you're in the ER you're scared and injured/sick enough to go to an ER.
Bad, bad idea. ER people are already overwhelmed, and they're not the ones who are making political football, or $$ gain, out of this.
Call a cop.
Obviously, if the problem were so severe...your representatives would do something about it.
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
Everybody's reps have health care.
And jeebus, if I were to take you seriously, cops are part of the problem, not the solution.
Next time show work. How is overwhelming an overwhelmed part of people who are already trying to do the best they can going to help?
Sheesh, it's like attacking Iraq for 9/11.
.
and while you at it, take LIEberman and Hairy Reed with you. Somebody needs to show them a video of Berlusconi taking a statuette to the face as a reminder of what happens when you piss of the electorate.
The process isn't over. Have the senate pass this incredibly flawed bill and then scream like hell when the House and the Senate have to reconcile.
I heart Dean, and I respect his opinion as a doctor, but I think he's wrong in this case. The process isn't over, we should be working towards applying pressure in the House/Senate reconciliation, not just halting the process. LIEberman has a very reduced role in that process.
IOW, vote for cloture and make it an up and down vote in the Senate. Just like all the rethugs were screaming about when they had a majority.
Starting over is not an option because starting over will just take another 40 years.
JMHO.
http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=31308
"The deal has to be negotiated in the real world, not on some idealized Aristotelian plane. We understand that. A 100-percent deal may be impossible."
Famous "Reality Based" Commentator
... I'm not at all keen on handing the fumble-fingered QB (Spineless Harry) the ball for that last make-or-break play to turn defeat into victory.
The Democrats lost because they gave everything up - key reform, principles, conviction - to win votes. That kind of majority will NEVER have enough votes, and it's what we're hearing going into 2010: oh, please give us more money and vote for us so we can 'strengthen' our majority.
This is what happens when politicians let politics drive their policies rather than letting their policies drive their politics.
The issue won't go away for 40 years, it will be back in two and will be an even bigger issue. Then we can keep single payer ON the table!
Sen. Sanders' Single-Payer amendment is being read on the Senate floor right now.
Sen. Coburn(R) requested the reading of the amendment then left the Senate floor. I think there should be a rule that requires the person requesting the reading of legislation MUST stay through the entire reading. If that person leaves during the reading, the reading stops.
but the Senate HCR bill needs to be killed, posthaste.
The possibility of a viable Healthcare (Insurance) Reform bill emerging from the Reconciliation Process based upon the current Senate HCR bill is extremely remote. Think of this particular legislative process like genetics. In-breeding in genetics is statistically inclined to bring out the absolute worst recessive traits in the genome. It is why marrying a relative closer than a first cousin is, in every rationally organized society, generally illegal. A perfect example is before us in the news every day -- where do you think all these knuckle-dragging Neanderthal Reich-wing Tea-Baggers came from?
It's in the genes. Just say NO. Kill the bill, period. I do realize that an additional 45,000 Americans will die in the mean time, due to lack of proper health care in this country. It makes me sad, and angry. But the alternative as it currently exists will financially enslave the entire population. Some better legislation will emerge next Spring, along with some return to rationality by our illustrious Senators, or there will be rioting in the streets.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-- John F. Kennedy
... but that 45,000 is each year. I'm surprised you take that number lightly. You must have health care insurance. (FWIW, I do now, it doesn't mean I don't remember when I didn't.)
->"where do you think all these knuckle-dragging Neanderthal Reich-wing Tea-Baggers came from?"
Ignorance and corporate astroturf.
It's still in the Senate, it has to be reconciled with the House's version, but all kinds of things can happen during that process. Even good things, and I'm not what anyone would term an optimist.
And they're not even talking about voting on the bill, they're talking about stopping debate on the bill.
Put it to the floor, debate it, offer amendments, and vote on it. At least it goes to recon.
and no, it's not in the genes, it's in their jeans, and they should keep their zippers closed and their minds open.
I do know very well what 45,000 deaths of fellow Americans per year mean, all due to lack of proper healthcare. I don't take that number lightly. In fact, I fully expect to be among that number either next year or the year after. I do not have healthcare insurance, and have not had any since I was laid off in 2002.
Anything that either the current House or Senate HC insurance bills have would not help me, at all. Let me explain:
(1) mandatory HC insurance ----- sorry, but I cannot pay for it if I'm unemployed.
(2) Medicate buy-in at age 55 ---- the same issue as number (1)
(3) pre-existing conditions ------ without Universal Single Payer, not insurable, period
(4) age 55 or over ------------- in this economy, virtually unemployable - pre-existing condition
Reconciliation will NOT make a single good healthcare bill out of two pieces of shite. If you really believe that it will, then you are playing with yourself. Howard Dean is ONLY right about "kill the bill".
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-- John F. Kennedy
deny their claims?
half dozen of the other. Dean's strategy of going for either a public option or a medicare expansion through budget reconciliation means delaying insurance reforms to another bill. I don't see any particular advantage in doing it his way. Doing the insurance reforms in this bill and the medicare/public option in a succeeding bill seems to me to be just as valid a strategy.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
The " good " guys just couldn't get enough votes , period , they fought hard but all of the bribe money from the lobbyists to the corrupt self serving whores paid off . Man , if this fiasco didn't expose just how corrupt our " representatives " are and who owns them ! Now they are wrapping this bill up in a pretty wrapping paper and a bow trying to tell us that this turd is healthcare reform , take this or nothing at all , we can fix it later and add to it . It should be rejected period , it's a mandated gift to and a friggin boom for the Insurance companies , this is healthcare reform ? The Dems are desperate to have " something " passed or politically it is a disaster for them and just what the Repugs wanted , I say tough and that the Dems better clean house and get the rats in the party in line or purge their asses out and replace them .
The democrate leadership all but made this the outcome when they started from a compromise and then refused to stand up and just keep backing down over and over and over again. Obama didn't help at all and jumpped on the slap down bandwagon when it came time to support the progressives.
No, not the one where they decry Markos & DKos as Trotskyites who cry and now want to go home with their ball, although I've seen those posts at G Sargents, Ezra's & S. Benen & K Drum.
No, not the one where they ignore the current bill as being political suicide for the Democratic Party's election hopes for the next several cycles. They all routinely ignore that part too.
You know, the one where they all declare this bill the best we can get and we will never ever get better, ever! Then they go on to say how many uninsured this will cover (without any factual evidence).
I was offended by the new Village Bloggers (who normally I read & like) uniform slamming of the DFH Bloggers, especially in terms that are very close to the same terms the MSM Village idiots use to desribe them, the Village Bloggers. But to ignore that this bill would guarantee the demise of Democratic Majorities and act like that isn't a consideration at all leads me to wonder.....
Who'se lobbyist/corporate payrolls are they all now on?
Who'se lobbyist/corporate payrolls are they all now on?
Look at the advertising on their blogs.
Also, they want to be invited to all those cool "B" list events. GOOD TIMES!
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
since we stopped that nasty Nixon proposal back in....
"The deal has to be negotiated in the real world, not on some idealized Aristotelian plane. We understand that. A 100-percent deal may be impossible."
Famous "Reality Based" Commentator
Lieberman is scum. Caving to his demands is pathetic. Democrats are, in general, pathetic. Harry Reid is scum. He could change the filibuster rules to only require 55 votes, which he should have done all along, but didn't because he is a pathetic leader who epitomizes the spineless, pathetic democrat.
Dean is right: reconciliation was the only way to go, because anyone who has followed this topic at all would know that Lieberman would never compromise, because he is a conniving, traitorous, evil, hypocritical scumbag who should burn in hell. No republican is as evil as the war-mongering, anti-American Lieberman, who betrayed his party and his state after losing the primary. Every time I see his face or hear his voice, I want to ralph all over the keyboard.
I will not pay a fine. I will fight these senate assholes.
What we should do is kill the senate!
You VILL pay ze fine! Und like it! VE have ways of making you pay ze fine.
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
Deny thast Dean here holds any weight and he must be mistaken and all that.
...Republicans can lie cheat and steal, and kill hundred's of thousands of people with those lies, and somehow it's never as bad for them as when Democrats fail to save 45,000 lives.
Shorter, Republicans have to destroy the economy, kill thousands, destroy our reputation and then, maybe it's a failure.
The Democrats don't end the wars quickly enough, don't pass life-saving reforms past insurmountable obstructionism, and can't fix 12-30 years of bad economic policy in less than a year, and it's definitely a failure.
IOKIYAR
..we have a snoball's chance in hell with real reform? I used to think we did; not anymore. Gov. Dean said it best with 40 senators/shills for the insurance industry just voting against it because it was drafted in a Democratically controlled Senate and four more who are just miscreants, too much has been given away and it doesn't do enough of what it should. Kill the Bill.
How is it f-ing possible to control the Executive branch and the Legislative branch of the government and still not be able to get good quality legislation from these..insert insulting term here..?
It must be that only four ..insulting term.. control the Senate. Clearly we wasted time voting for anyone who we thought would represent the people of the United States of America.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
You can have all the healthcare you want.
As long as you can afford it.
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
You are assuming that your idea of "good quality legislation" is the same as that of the Democratic representatives you're referring to. Always keep this in mind - their first priority is to stay in office.
What's next on your agenda, Howard? Gonna throw your support behind financial industry regulation and then recommend not voting for that either?
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
Howard Dean is not abandoning health care reform. Everything he supported in the legislation has been watered down, thrown out, or not even offered from the start. It is not reform if it does more harm and fails to control costs.
2000+ pages of worthless gobbledy gook; complements of the US taxpayer. Time to begin again.
In my view, if presented properly, Single Payer health CAN coexist with the money monger insurance companies. Although it is available to everyone, many will not qualify primarily due to their life styles. And for these people, the private insurers can name their price.
Where am I going with this?... Eat healthy, exercise regularly, back off of dope, cigs and booze, see a doctor regularly (manditory requirement) and you qualify. These restrictions must be in place. Otherwise, the plan will be abused. The benefits are enormous! Most of all, it will encourage americans to live healthier lives.
Their homeworld was a place called Earth, located in an uninteresting part of the galaxy. They had an expression: pride goeth before a fall. Their pride was their undoing. I know. I was there....They did not listen, of course. Arrogant men never do.
legislate life style. Well, you shouldn't be able to do either one. I do take your point, though. I was going to make a comment about democracy, but as we don't live in one, my comment would have been pointless.
Not sure I get your drift. What I am suggesting doesn't infringe on anyone's privacy, rights, morality or life style. Single Payer health is simply a government run program that has rules and regulations... nothing unusual there. Either you qualify or you don't. Just like applying for welfare, food stamps, college loans, drivers license, etc.
Their homeworld was a place called Earth, located in an uninteresting part of the galaxy. They had an expression: pride goeth before a fall. Their pride was their undoing. I know. I was there....They did not listen, of course. Arrogant men never do.
Mine is this: All pay onto the plan, tax payers subsidize those who cannot pay, and the government doles out the money to whoever needs health care. There is no "qualifying" for it. It will bve the only game in town. I am not sure I understand what you mean by rules and regulations. You cannot have the government dictate what people eat, or smoke, etc. BTW, if the government is so concerned about its citizens, why does it pay subsidies to the tobacco industry so they can maintain their profits because they lose smokers each year?
I know, I spent last night in despair, but it's the morning after. If you think that there's going to be a successful killing of the Senate bill, then a rewriting of the House bill, making it into a money bill -- that's something that will take months, and we will completely lose our momentum by then. Then it will be really killed, and forget the whole subject for another 10 years at least.
Yes, Lieberman is a despicable putz, but this is not news, and what can we do about that? But this is a football game that we were two touchdowns ahead on a few months ago. Now, we have the choice of winning by one point on a late field goal or losing by one point. Time to dig in, in other words.
Nate Silver has some very good stats here:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/12/20-que...
Two touchdowns ahead? It seems advocates for reform have always been at least a touchdown behind. The only thing that was going for the reform advocates was home field advantage which was squandered the moment President Obama decided not to fairly consider ALL the options which would have included a CBO analysis on single payer.
Hold the progressive caucus together no matter what the outcome of this legislation and organize the primary challengers to take on standing Democrats who are selling out to corporate funding. This is digging in.
Yup, I agree with Mr. Dean. He hit the the nail on the head with the statement "people are exhausted", in which fed-up, over it and just plain sick and tired...(ooh, that's pun) with the circus and rip-off that the Dems have made of Mr. Obamas' Health Care Reform. But that is the way the system works...wear you down until it gets what is wants. He handed much too much responsibility for getting the message out to Congress. The worthless body of the very people who are getting the bribes. It was mentioned further up the thread that if Obama had been stronger on it and not let the party run him, it may have been different. The damage is done. This makes a perfect example of a President losing control of his own agenda. I hope it doesn't pass either. No one is winning except Big Insurance,Inc. with new better ways to screw more money out of the public. I hope the President keeps this year long folly of naught in mind with the next issue.
Government + the Federal Reserve = organized crime
when presented with this bill, he vetos it. The only way I will have any respect for Congress is if they do not even attempt to override the veto.
May I have use of your name "BigInsurance,Inc." please? I am tired of typing "private insurance companies."
I would love to see them *cough* pull the plug and start over.
In my vision Obama would address America, informing people that having tried to work with Republicans and conservative Dems,it's become painfully clear that they have zero intention of ever allowing a decent bill to pass and have been behaving like spoiled children. Therefore it's time to start over.Without them.
Oh and Lieberman is done.He's finished.Pack yer bags Joey and don't let the door knob hit you in the ass on yer way out.
"To me, truth is not some vague, foggy notion. Truth is real. And,
at the same time, unreal. Fiction and fact and everything in between,
plus some things I can't remember, all rolled into one big "thing."
This is truth, to me. "
-Jack Handy
I'm going to turn toward religion...and pray for the demise of the American healthcare system.
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
Considering the fact that I agree with Dean, I guess I am IRRATIONAL then. Who wants to join the irrational express with me?
You can count on me.
Kill the bill. Like that will ever happen. Mark my words and you heard it here first. Once this bill passes companies will be free to eliminate any and all health care coverage for employees. Employees, hard pressed to cover the cost will then agree to being allowed to use part (or all) of their, not the companies contribution, but their social security contributions to pay for it. This will allow companies to eliminate their matching social security contributions since it is money that will no longer be part of social security. By fucking with everyones health care, they will effectively eliminate social security, and the great unwashed masses will be greatfull for the crappy health insurance they will get. Imagine, a health policy that covers only the second half of ANY bill over 5,000 (and you PAY the first half BEFORE they pay the second half), AFTER the annual deductible has been met, lets say the annual deductible is 20,000 for kicks. Who would pay for such crap? Everyone that is at risk for any type of major surgery, heart repair, hips, knees, cancer, diabettes, etc. etc. etc. Remember, you will pay the insurance companies their money or you will pay it to the IRS instead as a fine once this grand piece of legislation gets shoved up our asses.........
Seriously?
will keep the fines, minus expenses for the IRS's collection efforts. You will then get an even crappier policy that will cover virtualy nothing. It will have deductibles so high that 'coverage' will never kick in. Just wait and see if I ain't right on this.
.
"...where should the Democrats go??"
TO HELL!!
OBAMA, SENATE DEMOCRATS = FAIL
It's about damn time Dean finally realized that Congress is NOT going to pass any kind of meaningful reform and finally backs killing this BS as many of us have been calling for for months. Since it was obvious that this Congress would NEVER pass any meaningful reform it's all been wasted time that might have been used on some other progressive legislation that actual had a chance of being made into law.
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