Teabaggers decry the Public Option
By scarce Monday Sep 14, 2009 4:00pmDuring the danse macabre of Saturday (otherwise known as the "Taxpayer March on D.C.") at least one voice of sanity was present, a Democrat with some very large cojones.
The villagers were not happy.
Edward Kimmel, 58, of Takoma Park, Md., is confronted by opponents of a government run health-care insurance option.
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Nothing is more depressing than seeing such extreme levels of fear, hate and absolute stupidity in one's own country.
This is one guy you won't be seeing on Fox. Thank God for the Police escort.
No matter what race any of us may be, every American should be ashamed for these sad, criminally ignorant, racist people.
your words ring so true, is it that they are wired to be ignorant?
him and others on track or at least make them think who is really jerking their chain and denying care.....
Wall Street Banks hold these percentages of shares in Health Insurance giants and are increasing shares by the tens of millions
United 77.32%
WellPoint 79.04%
Aetna 79.45%
CIGNA Corp. 68.71%
Coventry Health 82.25%
Health Net Inc. 79.37%
Wall Street is the enemy. Can we afford another bailout for these people and their bonus structure!
Then again, for some this is just covering basic racism with a topic more PC!
You are an attorney and I assume a realist. It ain't gonna happen. The deniers are everywhere. Only they can help themselves!
try my best to explain what is actually going on.... this is not about health care, or abortion, or death panels, or the massive spending that continues to take place in both parties. This is about the corruption in the federal government.
As most, if not all of you here are progressives, I am sure all would agree that the issues matter, yes, but until you get rid of the corruption in the government, no issues matter. You cannot have good health care reform if the system is corrupt.
I would love for anyone here to prove me wrong that there isn't corruption on both sides of the aisle, please do, but the problem is, you can't, you won't, it can't be done. If only you would be willing to open your eyes, listen, and see, you would understand. Oh as for as the numbers, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/art...
You may never understand, but one day, I hope you do. God bless you and keep you, even if you do not believe in him.
Your logic would lead to an utter lack of any government programs - any government at all, really! After all, if any system will be inevitably corrupt, and any corrupt system should never be brought into being, we're left at quite the impasse. And in the interim, the United States continues to be the only first-world democracy without universal healthcare, and people are dying because of it.
Oh, and with all due respect, "You may never understand, but one day, I hope you do" is a rather condescending sentiment.
Peace.
you still miss the point... you are saying it's ok if the government is corrupt, as long as they give us health care.... not acceptable. For clarification we are not a democracy but a republic.
to be saying that people cannot have health care because some people in government are corrupt. I will grant you this: your logic does resemble the peace of God.
You still are missing the point.... for example, have you seen the stories about ACORN? How much money has gone to them? Tax payer dollars.... the waste... and here we are talking about health care? Fix the system first, then talk about the issues...
just never mind gesh so tired of the well democrats are just as bad arguement
You have GOT to be freaking kidding me. Here is just one more example of some right wing, nonsense talking point forces someone (well, probably not forces, doesn’t take much) to abandon logic, objectivity or context. When Bush and the right wing expanded Medicare they gave the officials in government and the media some projections on costs. Some people on the inside knew that the numbers were cooked and wanted to say something. The Bush White House threatened these people with their jobs. The bill was voted on and passed, in part because of the cooked numbers. AFTER the bill was passed the White House leaked the actual numbers, which were much higher than what they gave as the price of the bill. They even threatened members of their own party with pulling support in primaries and handed out checks from the drug manufactures on the floor. The bill was nothing but increased protection for drug making companies, done by the right wing. Care to compare the amount of “waste” in that one bill compared to the money given to a group that tries to help and represent a large group of people ignored by the party of Christ, the poor? Where was the “tea bag” mob then?
How about tax cuts DURING a war? Is THAT waste? Can you find any other country in history who passed a tax cut during war? How about the billions of missing money from Bremer’s office in Iraq? As far as I know he can’t account for the majority of the billions of dollars the office was given (it also dwarfs the other scandal that involved groups like Cheney’s old company, the Oil for Food scandal). How about the, roughly, TRILLION dollars we spend on the largest socialist institution in the world, the US military? A TRILLION dollars, many times more than the rest of the entire world spends on the military. Have any idea how much of our economy relies on the military, which is the government? How about the large amounts of subsidies we give to large corporate agro-corporations so they can drive groups like Mexican farmers off the land?
Is any of this waste? Were there large amounts of government waste when Gingrich’s district received the most government hand outs outside of military towns in the entire country while he was in office? No, because you weren’t told by people on TV or the radio to pay attention to this, so like a good little sheep you and the other “tea baggers” didn’t either.
I agree that there are large amounts of corruption in government, but the potential is there for government to work and benefit the people, as long as it IS more a democracy than a republic. The whole logic of having a republic is that people elected are so much smarter and more educated than us and they can create policies more enlightened and advanced than we could. Do you see any evidence of this anywhere?
People like have nothing but a self fulfilling philosophy. You have an ideological objection to government so you elect people into government who think as you do. It makes logical sense only on the condition that once in office they will gut the government, underfund it and make sure this horrible monolith is tamed. So, they do just that. They gut the government, they underfund it (or get it so far into debt that it will be underfunded in the future, which they’ve done at least since Reagan), they farm out basic social services that the government can do better and at a fraction of the cost to their pals in the private market, etc. When government performs horribly, in large part because it is filled with people who object to making the institution they work for work as well as it could, you can point to it as a justification for voting more idiots into office who have an ideological objection to the institution they work for. It makes total sense, you know? Who would you put in charge of a large corporation? Someone who has an ideological objection to corporations and profits? When the person’s actions cause the corporation to fail he can point to its failure as proof that his ideas have validity. In the meant time though, you’re destroying this country and making it impossible for us to come together to solve the problems we face. We are completely incapable of solving the largest problems we face because of this irrational movement you’re part of. I don’t want any more damn lectures from you people on morals. You have none. You have metaphysics and policies that, since I’ve been an adult, have caused nothing but decline in this country.
So, your option is the keys to everything should just be turned over to anyone who thinks only like you and the rest be dammed eh? Good one.
just dime store psychology/ philosophy. no substance.
for Floyd the barber and Goober to get elected to the White House, (snicker).
I want you to take a look at reality, to turn off the damn radio and Fox News and to think for your freaking self. Educate yourself about our system vs. other systems. Have an open mind. This means that you don’t say, government bad, private market good. You look at what WORKS for people, what is most moral and efficient and you make a decision on THAT. When you've educated yourself and are willing to challenge your own basic precepts (which is difficult for us all) THEN turn on the radio and Fox News. You'll discover quickly how much these people lie and stretch the truth. When you research who is funding the people leading these protests and the disruption of town halls you'll realize what a sham all of this is. You don't have to think like us, more than anything because there is no "us". Some of us here are pretty radical, some of us are moderate. We just look at what you're saying, who you're protecting and what needed progress you're stopping and are angry and fed up. We’ve had approaching 40 years of right wing economic and health care policy and our country is crumbling as a result. You can’t point to the people trying to fix this (in Obama’s case fixing it to a point created by entrenched interests and no further) mess and passing judgment as if people like you have no hand in this.
You can give us any platitudes you want about “individual freedom” or “liberty”. When you’re asked to flesh those ideas out you can’t, because they only apply to groups and people who have large amounts of money and power. In the end you’re simply defending the people screwing us all over and you’re being lead by people who are being paid off by these groups.
Mr. John, please don't play that Bill O'Reilly game where someone explains in great detail what their position is, and then you come back with "Oh, so you're saying you WANT to rape nuns?" or some similar mischaracterization or extreme stereotype of their position.
The guy wrote a long and obviously sincere comment. It is both dishonest and disrespectful to ignore what he typed and to simply caricature it with a "So" question that isn't really a question. Shame on you.
"you come back with "Oh, so you're saying you WANT to rape nuns?""
That's all the guy has to offer.
I couldn't have said it better myself. This is the frustration I feel every day. It's been 30 long years of right-wing hit-jobs and self-fulfilling prophecies. Notice how John refused to argue any of your points. He's busy watching FOX news right now so he can reply to you at all. Another FOX brain-washed fool.
the keys get turned over.
Of course, in this case the keys aren't worth quite so much now that the last Administration made sure to dismantle and corrupt as much as possible, and steal the rest.
But how helpful all the trolls are in trying to distract from such inconvenient facts.
First off: thank you thank you thank you! Second: I think I'm in love.
He's one smart cookie.
You want wasted tax money; let us talk Blackwater, Xe. Maybe KBR, more than $80 million to install electrical wiring in Iraq that resulted in the electrocution deaths of US soldiers. However, Acorn is the problem? They are the problem because Fixed News told you so, not from reality. Clean your glasses and if you want to go after wasted tax money, let start at the top.
went to country club CEO's? Who entitled them to my hard earned money? Isn't that socialism?
you look at the contracts KBR and Halliburton and Blackwater have gotten, the corruption there, and the number of soldiers who have died as a result of that corruption, and then get back to us about ACORN.
Fix the system? Ha. If we wait until the system is fixed - something the Right will never allow because their survival is dependent on corruption - this will never get done. Which is what the Right wants - and their is no limit to the sabotage they will engage in to keep their pockets full of our money.
We are a Constitutional Republic, yes.
Actually we're a democracy that takes an indirect form instead of the direct form. The former is representatives, the latter is like townhall meetings.
Republics on the other hand can be dictatorships and oligarchies like the Republic of Rome, or France during the Reign of Terror.
In terms of parties, the Democrats initially formed under the name Democratic-Republicans in the 1790's. The republicans didn't form until the 1820's, and essentially took the place of the Whigs, but it was a gradual process as the Whigs died, and the members had to go somewhere. For the most part they were elitist wealthy, property owners concerned about society turning against their control. They usurped the name of the group that favored the American Revolution, but were hurt by the Know Nothings with their anti-immigration, anti-Amerindian stance. By the 1820's the Democratic Republicans were being called Democrats.
The reason why the Founding Fathers guaranteed a republic is because that was the least they would guarantee. Because they knew that in forts and other military localities, as well as territories not yet states, a republic was more practical and possible. But once they became states they had at least indirect democracies.
I love the classic "we are not a democracy but a republic" line. It's a telltale sign of someone without an actual argument and it reminds me of the reaction Bill Maher received every time he asked about Jonah and the Whale in his movie. The answer was always "it was a giant fish, not a whale". Huh? That doesn't change anything! It's still a large aquatic animal that is impossible for someone to survive inside of just as our republic is still a democracy. It doesn't change the argument in one bit.
Clarification? How about some education?
Yes, we are a republic. But guess what Braniac? We're a democracy too. You see, here in the real world, many times concepts overlap with each other. A republic is, simply, a state in which power rests in the hands of a group of people rather than one person. A democracy, like our own, is a republic in which that group of people is the entire citizenry rather than, for instance, a political party like in the People's REPUBLIC of China. Even the standard conservative derivation of the word "republic" is taken to mean "representative democracy" rather than "direct democracy". That's right, you're not even on the same page as the Republican Party... which is wrong, but less wrong than you.
In fact, all the statement "we are not a democracy but a republic" tells people is that you are ignorant. It's like saying "that's not an orange, it's a fruit". It's also a socio-political epiphany most of us had when we were around 12 years old. You know, when we were young and stupid.
Good to know.
It seems that anytime when the government wants to wage a new war (
Without mentioning names), that is fine. Bringing up words like patriotism in terms of trusting the government then is OK, but if we progressives question it, then we're traitors. I mean what the heck? Can't have it both ways. I would not deny there is corruption at various levels, but when Obama clearly won the election, and is trying in some way to address health insurance companies corruption, then we liberals are wrong. Death panels and long wait times are brought up, but we have that now. Norma Rae is the latest victim. Who is going to answer for this? I am pissed off, and I am sick and tired of conservatives thinking they've got it right all the time touting the virtues of the free market. Free market brought us child labor and slavery. Is there anything right or good about that, but bring up bad government anytime a change is needed and wooooo! WTF!!!!!!!????interjecting reality into their delusions.
Watch out, they'll call you unpatriotic.
do you mean lie? I saw the march on TV, there was at least a million people there, how is that a lie? What is a lie is there were only 10k to 40k people there like a lot of MSM media is reporting. Do you need pictures?
two million but the others got lost on the way.
a need for that during a discussion Peter?
That's impossible. The rest of the media outlets would have shown it. There is no proof what so ever that a mill attended. My guess from what I've seen is 15K tops.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/art...
http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal...
http://beltwayblips.dailyradar.com/story/up-t...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_P8FZGCsX7zc/Sq2JG8h...
Before the war there were MASSIVE marches, massive (people like you were calling us un-American for basically being right and predicting what would happen to that country and our soldiers). Did the "liberal" media give us a fraction of the time they've given you people? They ignored the marches. Most of the time, if they were mentioned, it was to attack the people marching. Fox News, which thought the protests were socialist parasites who were undermining America, now thinks protests are just dandy, and are giving it plenty of air time to people who say nonsense very loudly.
Besides all of that though, WHAT are you people marching for? We have the most expensive, inefficient health care system in the world. I haven't seen a single idea from you people that will do anything about that. Nothing CAN be done regarding waste in a private, for profit insurance system. Profits, as far as the delivery of social services, ARE waste, as are marketing costs, executive pay, dividend payments, administrative costs (which will always be higher in private plans), etc. What do you propose about the amount of people that will go bankrupt as a result of the profit motive? How many will die because of a lack of preventive care? Many don't detect things they might have if they head health care, sometimes it is too expensive and, besides, they don't want any "pre-existing" conditions that will make them un-insurable in the future. There are many other issues we could discuss that aren't material but are moral.
Regardless, WHAT are you defending but insurance company profits and an immoral, inefficient and wasteful system? You know what people like you have? Platitudes (“individual liberty”, mainly for people far richer than working class people), a failed, illogical and intellectually bankrupt ideology and usually decent care yourself.
I don't care if there were 30 million of you marching. What the hell are you marching for and against?! Are you marching against our ability to solve the big problems of the day, our continued decline as a country thanks to your policies, more waste and preventable deaths in health care?
Also, what do you think about the health care and drug companies, before all of this began, funding and leading most of these protests? I realize that there are right wing, working class people involved who have no connection to these companies. None the less, it was discovered that corporate front groups were giving directions on how to do things like disrupt the town hall meetings and created the talking points people like you now spout off. Do you not feel just a little like a puppet to the interests who are profiting off of this horrific system?
As for the ideas, the right has brought up their own health reform plan and guess what??? The left will not allow it onto the floor even, so before you say the right has no plan, look a little harder.
Also if you have proof the disruptions from town halls were from drug companies, I will show you unions that came out to instigate violence, deal?
Honestly. You tell us all, given the fundamental flaws of the health care system, what the right wing's health care plan is and tell us how it will solve the problems of the system. I know it is complex, do you best to spell it out. You are so opinionated about this issue, and have so much bravado, should be a piece of cake for you. The Republicans came out and said that they weren’t going to offer a counter bill. When it became apparent that that strategy was idiotic they gave out a, I think it was, ten point plan which said absolutely nothing. If you look at what they’re opposing, it is nothing more than moderate attempts at improving fundamental problems of the system, and I know what those problems are. You have no ideas, just no to common sense as well as policies and ideas that don’t fit into your narrow view of the world (which is a decades long horrible failure).
"Also if you have proof the disruptions from town halls were from drug companies, I will show you unions that came out to instigate violence, deal?"
What in the hell are you asking? You come here and lecture us on this issue, you take part in a march to save this horrible system, and you don't know even basic facts. Actually, maybe that explains a few things. I refuse to link the countless stories on this, as many here (who DO know what they're talking about) know, many corporate front groups funded the early protests and gave out tips on how to disrupt the town hall meetings. Rachel Maddow was one of many who reported this, but she’s left of center. She had the report there on the screen for you to read, you can find this online, but you’re too busy saving the system we have to know these types of details.
Union thugs...well there you go. You've now covered AAAAALLLL the right wing talking points. People shouting down a woman in her wheel chair asking a question of HER damn representative and a young woman talking about losing her mother thanks to the profit motive, those people aren't thugs. I know you people, I have faced you people on various issues. You’ve spit at me, physically threatened me, yelled nonsense to me, I almost got driven off of the Coronado bridge by one of you people for having the wrong bumper sticker.
Actually, the President and Democrats have listened to ideas from the right. They apparently disagree with many of them. Further, Democrats and Obama long ago gave up on single payer....isn't that a huge compromise, especially for the liberal supporters of Obama?
1. Tort reform. In his speech last week, Obama said he is ordering Sebelius to test putting caps on medical malpractice suits. He also said he did not think tort reform is helpful. If you look, the state of Texas already has tort reform on medical malpractice suits. Suits have gone down, but health insurance costs for individuals have not gone down.
2. Apparently, "portability", the ability to get health insurance across state lines, has been discussed with Obama and the Democrats. Personally, I think portability sounds like a good idea; I have health insurance, but it is from Blue Cross/Shield of Illiois; I live in Missouri. I have to drive 30 miles to see a doctor. However, Axelrod has been explaining that the issue is very complicated, and that's why Obama and the Dems do not currently want it in the plan. So, they have listened to Repugs; they just don't agree. And I have to take Axelrod and Obama at their word that the issue is very complicated.
How much more do the Democrats have to give up? They have given up single payer; other reforms are agreeable to both sides.
Repugs only want healthcare reform, if at all, if it is entirely on their terms. The want a republican health care plan. Problem is, the Democrats won the last election overwhelmingly.
for health care haven't even worked before, when they were tried. Why is it that the right is only willing to look at health care reform when the left forces them to look at it? Because they don't give a shit about it, that's why.
And there hasn't been any union-instigated violence at health care townhalls, you moron.
made 140+ amendments to the HC bill but not one VOTED FOR IT...That belies the whine of the repubs of being left out!...They are not telling you the truth. John- perhaps a broader reading list would be helpful..and watch more than fox!
Your 'movement' has been hijacked by the wingnuts!
Helps if you know who is jerking the chain...
Wall Street Banks hold these percentages of shares in Health Insurance giants and are increasing shares by the tens of millions
United 77.32%
WellPoint 79.04%
Aetna 79.45%
CIGNA Corp. 68.71%
Coventry Health 82.25%
Health Net Inc. 79.37%
Wall Street is the enemy. Can we afford another bailout for these people and their bonus structure!
I saw that Dailymail article over the weekend. It appears to be quite a right wing newspaper; its commenters especially seem to be right wingers.
Over the weekend, the article's title said up to "2 million." I notice that the one posted now says up to "1 million." Curious.
....Freedomworks, or any other organization involved in organizing the teabaggers, hasn't released an overhead shot of the event.
...The Daily Mail is a Tory papaer.
Didn't really know much about The Daily Mail, although I've heard of it.
The comments on that link really show the political viewpoints of many of its readers. There are a huge number of red arrow votes, disapproving of comments against the teabaggers; there are a huge number of green arrow votes, approving of comments that praise the teabaggers.
so, they can green flag the teabaggers all they want but when they get hemorrhoids, they can go to the doctor and whine about how their asses hurt and it doesn't cost them a dime.
[How do we know that the those who green flagged the teabaggers weren't USA based readers stacking the deck?]
I'd really like to know what the hotel occupancy rates were. If there were really 2 million people, or even 1 million, seems to me that the hotels would be totally overbooked. I wonder if they were.
What was the portapotty situation like? I understand that predictions before the event were not close to 1 million, so portapotties likely would have been in short supply. Were there problems for the teabaggers relieving themselves at the event?
You'd think that all of those people converging on a Saturday would screw with the normal Saturday traffic patterns on the expressways.
You do have to figure in traffic for the annual National Black Family Reunion event, which was held over the weekend. IIRC, that event usually draws 1/2 million over the weekend (it's a 2-day event, I'd figure busier on Saturday than Sunday). That event is held on the west end of the National Mall, near the Lincoln Memorial. The capitol is on the extreme east end of the Mall, and the teabaggers teabagged each other to the east of the Capitol (not on the National Mall- I'll admit that the photo of an empty National Mall posted on the site yesterday, looking west at the Washington Monument, was a bit misleading).
Good point. I tried to find one on Flickr but I could only find shots from within the crowd and they didn't look packed in that much. Every protester I saw in the 100 or so photos I flipped through were all white too with a lot of them old enough to be on medicare. Oh the irony.
Did you look at the photo that accompanied that article in the Daily Mail Online article?
The caption said "tens of thousands".
What I suspect is the paper took verbatim the pre-written press release from FreedomWorks and ran with their fantasy numbers.
No one clued in the photo editor however, and he used real numbers.
said '2 million' and that's all they needed to say, "Unconfirmed sources estimate the crowd as a 'majority' of Americans".
Of course, the truth is in the videos.
Maybe 40,000.
You take an untruth, report it from a source which did not verify it, then quote the non-professional sources which repeat the unverified untruth, and, voila!, a new meme is born to be circulated with photos of earlier events as further evidence!
Giving one foreign right-wing press quote as a source and then using right-wing blogs which repeated the incorrect quote as verification proves nothing except your willingness to believe what you want to believe, in spite of the facts.
less than meets the eye,
There were 500,000 at Woodstock...you are saying there were twice as many? ARE YOU KIDDING? The media would still be showing the video and talking about it....this is crazy.
less than 50,000 at the outside and the message from the STAGE was NOT what was being said in the crazy pockets of the crowd..Your movement is getting played--even if they had a point it is hijacked by the paid for or willfully ignorant!
where did you get that number from?
Yes, I do admit there is corruption in the government.
However, what does that have to do with these teabaggers protesting healthcare reform? In particular, what does that have to do with these teabaggers heckling an older man who wants the public option, loudly booing him, calling him names (I heard "asshole" at least once), and angrily yelling that they want him "out of here"?
You really think the march was only about health care? That is how much was not shown.
sore losers, who are a bunch of lemming cry babies.
the republican party lacks a leader, and so the kooks and bigots take control. this is what anarchy looks like with out leadership from your party. even glenn beck didnt show.
nice.
No, I know it was not only about health care. It was about bringing down Obama.
I saw Jim DeMint once again use his "Waterloo" analogy. I saw many ugly signs concerning healthcare, including one held by a young girl saying "Bury Obamacare with Kennedy." I saw a picture of a young boy wearing a t-shirt that said "The way to stop Obama Communism is to bring back McCarthyism." I saw signs sponsored by Lindon Larouchepac.com. These were not just isolated incidents. I saw other speakers use the same old hateful rhetoric and lies about socialism and how people will lose their "freedoms." It's rhetoric; I have yet to hear any people like this tell us things like A)why is socialism "evil", as they imply (I lived in socialist Europe at one time....it was not "evil"); and B)what freedoms exactly are we losing?
The point I was making, however, was concerning healthcare. That guy carrying the Public Option sign seemed like a peaceful demonstrator. He looked to be an older guy. He was heckled by angry people; he was spat at; someone hit him with a yellow object; he was called at least once an "asshole"; he needed a handful of policemen to help him get out. It was not an isolated incident because clearly he was walking through a long gauntlet of these teabaggers.
I know that there are valid concerns by some of these people. Unfortunately, there are a lot more than just isolated incidents of hatred towards Obama and those like this older gentlemen who peacefully wanted to express his point of view.
is a super left-winger. These type of protests don't just attract wingnuts, but crazies of all kinds. Personally I think it's disgraceful that people who don't want the health care reform shouldn't be able to get the public option. This would save us a ton of $ if in fact the oldest people are the ones protesting against it.
Lindon (sic) LaRouche is a super left-winger.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
We should make murder legal, because obviously the corrupt gov't doesn't catch and try any criminals.
Access to a belt-fed general purpose machine gun because the corrupt government run armed forces don't protect us.
its fear of a black president brings this out in you?
its not about health care, we have the best in the world. its the health care delivery , and how insurance industry, unregulated in a free market have raped the american public in the name of profits. regulated industry and competition will drive out any corruption. but beyond that single payer is necessary for america to compete in the free market your friends seem to wrap themselves in. problem solved.
i dont think you understand .
people are dying, who dont need to die, but because the insurance co got inbetween the dr. and the patient. in the name of profit.
"health care, we have the best in the world"
We're #37!!!!
We have worse health care than many third-world nations.
If this is about corruption then why aren't they outing the corrupt politicians in the pockets of major corporations? Don't you think exposing the corruption as opposed to bitching about an new possible government program would be more conducive to putting an end to the corruption?
As it stands your point is nothing more than a red herring to draw attention away from the issue.
thats going to leave a mark in his thought process.
I think exposing the corruption would be a great idea. Which brings it back to the topic at hand. How can you have any decent reform, health care or other, if it is corrupt to the core? Have you read HR 3200 and have seen the new powers that the IRS would have? Have you? This is one example of many.
Health care reform in this country is not worth it at any cost.
If this is about corruption then why aren't they outing the corrupt politicians in the pockets of major corporations? Don't you think exposing the corruption as opposed to bitching about an new possible government program would be more conducive to putting an end to the corruption?
If this is about corruption, they why are they not outing those politicians who are receiving massive contributions from various special interests? Why narrow the focus onto the health care issue?
Answer me this, which is more effective at combating the corruption in government? Pissing, moaning, and crying about a possible new government program. Or making the same big scene only outing those politicians who are in the pockets of special interests?
Lets say they do quash the Public Option, tell me, what would that contribute towards ending the corruption? No one is likely to get voted out of office if that happens save for possibly Obama, but he's hardly the root of the problem. Those same crooked congress people will still be there, it would have solved nothing.
You're trying to say this is about corruption, and I asked you if it was, then why is the focus of the protest not digging deeper, as in attacking the corrupt politicians themselves, I'm still waiting for an answer.
This country has ALWAYS been corrupt, as Adam Smith pointed out, you can expect a government dominated BY the "masters" to create policies FOR the masters, which they have. We just got done however with 8 years of unprecedented corruption thanks to your palls on the right. I gave some examples above. Off the charts as far as this country is concerned, which says a lot. Corruption in private industry is profitable and accepted as the norm, so we don’t need to go into that. Where were you people when this was happening? You said and did nothing. If you had listened to us, instating of attacking us, before the Iraq war there'd be over a million more Iraqis alive, the country wouldn't be destroyed and looted, there'd be thousands of more Americans alive and (most important to people like you) we'd have trillions of dollars more. Even more if we didn’t freaking pass tax cuts DURING war. There’s no word to give that stupidity justice. Where were you with the Medicare bill and the corruption there thanks to your pals on the right and the industries that are now leading you against needed reform in health care? Bremer’s office in Iraq? The revolving door of the Bush administration with private industry (one example among many is putting in charge of forestry one of the heads of the logging industry), the administration made up of oil executives who did an array of policies that benefited their friends in the oil industry? The examples are endless. You did NOTHING. You step forward now, after the country has been destroyed by the people YOU voted into office and enacted the polices that people like YOU voted them into office to do, and complain about the effects of those policies on people. There are no words to describe how fed up I am with people like you. We have no good choices in the short term thanks to the horror that the right wing created under Bush. We simply don’t. We have bad and worse options. Obama is choosing worse in part because he’s listening to people that are close to you ideologically (at least regarding economic and health care issues) but in the short term there is no good option. Like the children you are you refuse to take responsibility for the mess you created. If we fix these problems, in part by ignoring people like you and fundamentally fixing what needs to be fixed, you probably just vote someone in to tear it down. It’s a cycle fed by ignorance and a rigid, irrational ideology. It is embarrassing for me that the rest of the world sees what a stupid country we’ve become, with the stupidest screaming the loudest. Please save the people who have interests the opposite of my own! I need my abstractly defined “personal freedom”!
Channel Keith Olberman there for a moment?
you're an idiot, plain and simple.
is - Where the hell were you guys when Bush was running up this massive debt? Where were you when he was opening the doors to every corporate shill who came knocking? Where were you when he started a premptive war base on out right lies? Where were you as the wealthy recieved massive tax cuts and the middle class lost some $1800/yr. ? Utterly silent. And when we progressives spoke out, armed with genuine facts, unlike the majority of you clowns, you called us traitors, un-American libruls. The same damn thing you did when Clinton came into office. So you know what. Y'all can take your So-called concern and self-righteous rage and shove it up your ass.
It's not us, it's you. The simplistic idea that government never does anything good, when there is plain and plentiful evidence to the contrary, shown every day, makes us think that you're an idiot.
There has been corruption since the earliest days of man, and yet progress has been made, nearly continuously. Why? Because nearly all of us have some level of decency to us. Despite anybody's flaws, many people do "the right things", most of the time.
So, I'll pray for you to get your head out of your ass, and drop the condescending, holier than thou attitude, and I'll pray that you get off your ass and do something, anything, that is constructive.
on both sides, I agree but getting hijacked by the crazies on the far right with the help of Insurance Corp dollars dilutes the message...
Most know that Wall Street is in control of the Insurance Cos...Medicare works...VA works...the dollars are diverted because it is for profit and the waste is epidemic! Congress has allowed this --not a New Admin that has been in less than 9 moths...The crazies are covering another agenda and using your cause to do it!
.
Yes, there has always been corruption, as long as people have been gathering together. Wherever there is power, there is corruption.
But you are lying to yourself and to us if you try and sell that this is about the corruption of the Federal government - it is not.
If it was, all the right-wingers now out squealing like stuck pigs would have been out protesting all through the last 8 years, but they were not. In fact, just the opposite; they were out squealing against anyone who tried to point out Federal corruption; calling them traitors, and worse.
I would love for you to prove me wrong that the Right has not been corrupt liars in their attempt to control this nation through fear and bullying, but you can't and you won't, because it can't be done.
It was the right-wing fear machine that had protestor's in front of Al Gore's house during the 2000 recount, screaming that then VP Gore should, "get out of Dick's house", but they never went back out protesting the illegal and corrupt things that Dick did while in office.
Where was their concern about rampant corruption then?
Where were your guardians of liberty when Republican Congressmen sent their Congressional aides and staffers to illegally disrupt a legal recount in Miami?
Where were your guardians of liberty when Bush lied this country into an illegal war? Spied on American citizens? Gutted the Constitution? Broke the back of the economy? Gave away US port security to Dubai for cash? Gave billions with no accountability to the banks before leaving office? Allowed the destruction of an entire career of intelligence work for political gotcha? Sent NINE BILLION in cash to Iraq for bribes?
When others tried to use their Constitutional right to protest all that corruption, as the teabaggers are doing now, it was those very same people who now claim their right to revolt who wanted to surpress any lawful dissent then, calling anyone they disagreed with traitors.
Do you not see what insane hypocrites these people are? For the last 8 years, anyone who wanted to protest Bush was put in a barbed wire cage miles away from their president, so His Royal Emporer would never be disturbed by the common folk - and the Right called them traitors for using their Constitutional rights. But now, the Right is all about the glory of protest and revolution - not because of any noble beliefs, but because they lost the election to a black man, and the Right is nothing if not hypocrites, cheaters and bad losers.
This is about mob mentality, trying to grab back the power they lost to the will of the majority and force the hypocrisy of a few on the rest of us. And they are more than willing to manipulate the ignorant through fear-mongering and lies.
Watching these teabaggers/birthers/deathers/tenthers/secessionists is like watching a festival of Ignorance Porn
about the teabaggers.....
I noticed the very civilized brief conversation and handshake between Mr. Kimmel and the policeman escorting him.
All i can say is I take my hat off out of respect. Great balls of brass is what this gentelman has. I don't think I would have enough balls to do what this gentelmen did and I do know how to handle myself in fight.
When seeing scenes like this and trough entire US health debate I'm gratefull I live on other continent.
For the record I agree with poster John that the real problem in US is corruption and for me completly crazy lobbying laws which basicly is tantamount to corruption (even if it is legal). This is what basicly stops or at least slows down any significant reform.
My small central european country is no saint in regards of corruption but if even 1 cent was paid by a any company to election coffers of any politician heads would roll.
> Nothing is more depressing than seeing such extreme levels of fear, hate and absolute stupidity in one's own country.
Imagine being the rest of the world and having to put up with it.
These crackers make me embarrassed to be white.
I would have held a second sign while wearing a pair of shorts with an arrow pointing to my asshole that said, "Republican Birth Canal"
... these people make me embarrassed of belonging to the same species.
I just blew milk out my nose from laughing! Thanks, Halloween's just 'round the corner...
If you really want to make it good, put in a little sack full of little plastic elephants in the pockets, with a hole in it, so that every once in a while, one poops out the bottom.
LMAO!!! Good call there brother.
done!
Jackholes make me embarrassed to be an American Citizen.
This man needed a police escort. What does that say about teabaggers? This was a very brave man to walk through a crowd of crackpots. I saw a couple of people who tried to get in his face and the security had to push them away. No dialogue only intimidation. Get this mans name, he deserve the Medal of Valor for standing up to these thugs.
You'll also notice a lot of the rightwing sites have gone silent about the 1.2 million in attendance. Rush hasn't, I guess when you're all drugged up you see double or triple or...what's the word for seeing 20 times more?
I think that's "fucking liar."
Double decuple?
That's my best guess. I thought maybe "duodecuple" but it turns out that's 12.
At 1:28 you see the banner get pull down from there they pull it down to the ground and don't let go till 4 or so cops are around them. At 0:23 a guy in a gray shirt spit on the guy. At 1:17 a guy Blocks his way. At 1:23 a guy hits him with a yellow bell.
After the sign pull down they take 20 seconds to reform around the guy after that they have him and his sign basically completely surrounded for the rest of the walk because they fear for his life at that point.
Nice to see the truth they scream about rights being taken away and all that bullshit, but when it comes down to it one old white guy with a sign turns them all into rabid, basic right denying, fanatics.
They hit the guy ,yell at him, spit on him, attack him, pull his sign down. Love for it to come out this guy is a vet, the "teababbers spit on OUR vets" just a perfectly sad end to show were they really are.
no coverage about the left nut that shot and killed two people over the weekend, one was a pro-lifer carrying a sign for right to life and he killed him in cold blood.... http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/sep/0909...
No coverage about the black conservative who was beaten at a health care reform town meeting by the left union thugs..... http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/seiu-thugs-teach...
“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun.” “That’s the Chicago way.” - President Barack Obama
I see no evidence that the nutcase was a Dem.
I read another article that stated he was a hard right neocon.
So we'll just have to wait and see. What was the guys name again?
The 2nd article. There is/was speculation at the time of this that this man Gadley(?) started it. Again, we'll have to wait and see. But one thing is for sure. The nutcases are coming out.
I expect more.
In the first story, the second person who was shot(according to the story I read) had wronged his mom whom used to work for him years ago.
This story isn't what you're painting it out to be. There's more to it than just the bs your shoveling.
Nothing but far right wing blogs have listed the guy as leftist. There has been no reason given for why the guy snapped. The idea That he was leftist came when some cops and investigators said the guy had a grudge they never said what type of grudge just that he had one. Some far right pundits took that and added Leftist to it.
Also even if he was leftist that doesn't in anyway excuse the actions these people took when one old white guy with a simple sign tried to make his thoughts heard.
And what was it that Boosh said about Dictators? It would be ok as long as he was the dicktator.
Then there's St Ronnie. The nuclear bombing will commence in 5 minutes. Of course he said it as a joke. Some joke.
of the matter is this, there are wackos out there, everywhere...
oh the guy said this, "The suspect has admitted to police that he shot the 63 year old pro-lifer because he "objected" to the "graphic" picture of the unborn child.
Wow, sounds like a sane person there... we shall take a wait and see on both accounts,but seriously, the right and left has nuts, I can admit that, can you?
I am trying to get across that the actions of one or a hand full does not represent the majority of the right or left, but the media paints it that way. I would never hit, or spit etc... to anyone I disagreed with. By the left and the right publicizing these sorts of stories, it stirs up angst on both sides.
It just you don't see Dems blowing up medical clinics.
Or assassinating Dr's.
On this particular topic you've brought up.
How many Liberals have been gunned down in the last year?
Sooner or later someone will snap. And with all the hatred coming from the right, right now, that may happen sooner than any of us would like.
He shot the gravel pit owner because the owner wronged his mom when she worked for him. If you haven't found that out yet, you will soon.
Honestly, I read that he was a hard right mental case.
The story I read has dropped off of the radar now.
I wish I would have bookmarked it. Either way. The man is not right in the head.
That this makes a good case for gun control, No?
there wasn't a government run mental health care plan. Two people might be alive if there had been.
"Wow, sounds like a sane person there... we shall take a wait and see on both accounts,but seriously, the right and left has nuts, I can admit that, can you?"
The douche bag does not speak for all of us here that do not believe in violence in any form. For that matter, Edward Kimmel's carrying a sign through a crowd of A holes supposedly supporting our rights in this country, so long as you believe in what they believe right?
Just like the people who spit on this man or took down his sign does not speak for all on the right...Agreed?
No there not but ther are clearly a large part of the current right. They are endorced by many a right wing congressman, there held up as something they aren't. There numbers are drumed up by the right because they want them to be larger then they currently are.
And again you never proved that the shoter was a leftest.
I know there was news coverage on the guy who shot two people. I saw several news stories about it the day it happened.
I don't know about the black conservative who was beaten. Maybe there was no national coverage on that, but do fights and people getting beaten up deserve national news coverage? Hell, many people are killed every single day in this country. You don't see most of it on any news, except your local news.
I didn't see any news coverage of these teabaggers heckling that older, peaceful counter-demonstrator, except for here on C&L. So what's your point?
Wanted to try and make the left look as bad as these teabaggers here. When I listed all the things they did to this old guy he just had to pretend that the shooter was a lefist when called out on the fact that nothing has been shown that he was he backpetals to the old both side are just as wrong arguement.
My point is, the right runs stories and the left run stories all in the name of stirring up the base to cause angst and disruption.
It detracts from the real issues, sensational media at its best trying to stir up the public. All I am saying is don't play their game. Fight the corruption in government, provide term limits to all elected officials and then, let's talk about the issues. Maybe then, you won't have as many people in the pockets of corporations.
Take for instance Obama, he stood for change, he said he would help main street but bail outs went to corporations. Why? Did you get a bail out? I sure didn't, hell I still can't get a loan to re-finance but that's another discussion, the point is why does anyone here trust the federal government to get it right this time, or tell the American people the truth, when they have lied in the past and have messed up other programs?
There is one thing Obama said the other night though that I hope everyone holds him too. "I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits either now or in the future" If any health care plan must pass, this statement must stay true.
i think you need a T.V.timeout. and while your at it shut off you radio, for a week...find some kind of balance. this is by far the worst thread.
But it is true and factual, that's the best part :)
Not even close
if it bit you on the ass.
You say:
And we do understand you. You say you want to clean up the gov't first before starting anything new. Get rid of the waste and corruption. That this is what you say the mainstream conservatives/republicans want. Like throwing all the junk out of the basement before going and renting a storage locker -- maybe you find out you didn't need extra space after all. And that seems reasonable at first.
But there are two problems with this. Firstly, I think you're being disingenuous. As others pointed out, republicans weren't so big on getting the house in order before taking on costly new expenditures like war or revenue reductions like the tax cut. If you were genuinely for waste/corruption reduction before all else, you would be for waste reduction before things you do like as well as things you don't like. But since that was not the case, waste and corruption as a reason not to enact new policies is just a convenient excuse, not your real belief.
And in the second place, even if the government has too much waste and corruption, eliminating it all before anything else doesn't make sense. There's no reason you can't do both at the same time. Nothing is ever perfect and 100% efficient, so waiting for perfection just means doing nothing. Consider the internal combustion engine as a source of portable power. A good one can only convert 20% of the energy in its fuel to useful work. This is far from "perfect" and even a long way from the roughly 37% theoretical maximum (assuming it's made of iron). It burns fossil fuels faster than they are replenished, it contributes to pollution. But despite these and many other imperfections, they move people and goods around faster, farther and cheaper than anything else. It's not perfect, but it's been good enough for over 100 years.
C&L had film of that, he was never beaten up; the film wasn't conclusive, but it looked as thogh the "conservative black man" started it, was then running around the event (shown on camera, this was conclusive), then shows up the day after in a wheel chair, all bandaged up. He was unemployed, and now he's making a career on his new-found celebrity. PT Barnum was right, there's one born every minute.
stop bringing the right-wing, nut-enriched salad, OK. You bozo.
...I thought it was fantastic how he shook one of the officer's hands afterwards. Shows he appreciates the time they're taking out of their day to keep him safe from an angry mob.
count on an abacus. trust fox spotters. and are near sighted.
dick morris was spotted working the pros on the mall.
It tells me that the teabaggers are predisposed to violence.
Good show dude. Next time you come up with an idea of doing this call me. You are a true AMERICAN. Standing up in the face of adversity. Carrying signs saying "hooray for our side"....God Bless You Ed Kimmel....YOU ROCK......LET'S ROLL....
KISS
How do you spell PATRIOT?
E-D-K-I-M-M-E-L
Why is it that whenever I look at these "teabaggers", I become physically ill? They disgust me. Credit goes to Mr. Kimmel for being brave enough to walk among that group. And the fact that he needed police security says volumes about the other side.
That's because you're a human being who cares about other human beings. They simply don't.
To seeing contaminants in the gene pool.
the dumbest crowd chant I've ever heard. For the life of me, I can't understand the objection to giving people an alternative to the dirtbag insurance companies with the disgustingly overpaid suits. Are these idiots afraid that someone will break into their house at gunpoint and give them a colonoscopy? They might locate some of their unused brain cells.
That chant was just surreal! Newspeak at its finest, from people who say they're afraid of losing their freedom. Absolutely chilling.
protesting the tax breaks that Obama promised them... go figure.
Elitist. One of their biggest arguments is they wont see their doctors as soon as they want if we all get health care. So let the 47 million less fortunate suffer while they reap the benefits. This is two things. Them being denied and we get a fair chance and the color of the Presidents skin. They all need a colonoscopy to see what's wrong with these assholes.
routinely denied coverage and services now. I've had allergies my whole life but was forced to go see a gate keeper primary care doctor to get to an allergist. And (at least until recently) you could be denied medical coverage if you are injured during what is considered a high-risk activity; skiing, horseback riding, motorcycling, etc.
The guy shouting, "Don't make me take your public option!"
Dude, no one's MAKING you take it. The word *option* is right there in the name.
We need to call it the "OPTIONAL Public Option", so the Tea Baggers can maybe start to understand that it's not mandatory..
Or maybe the "NON-MANDATORY, OPTIONAL, ONLY IF YOU WANT IT Public Option"
Yeah, that's it.
That's still too many words for them to understand.
One person in video actually said this guy could have it, just don't force it everyone else. Last I checked, "option" was not the same as "requirement."
Out-freakin-standing. Mr. Kimmel is my new hero. Geez, maybe I should get off my fat @ss too?
Inspirational. Every journey starts with one step.
I almost hope we don't get a public option just so I know that these assholes can't get any insurance either. I have to assume that any one this stupid doesn't make much money.
these yahoos think that they're losing "freedom". The freedom to go into debt or bankruptcy? A lot are "good Christians" who apparently answer "no" when asked if they're their brother's keeper.
About these people, a lot of them are Protestant. One of the tenants of Protestantism is Sola Fide, Though Faith Alone. Basically you just need to have faith in Christ, never mind acting like him.
This was a very brave thing this man did even with an escort. How sad it is that this man couldn't walk among his fellow Americans without protection because his view were different than theirs.
I can say next time I wanna be there, I hope I get that chance.
I LOVE that he had the biggest and most bodacious sign there. The pole bent under its weight!!!!
and most excellent.
Way to go, Edward Kimmel! Nicely done!
it must have stood out like a sore thumb.
Dontcha love it? I do!
"and all of the words were spelled correctly!"
So that's why the teabaggers were angry! Correct spelling is elitist and un-American! :-p
Call him a spelling nazi for that just to try to get in a nazi comparison.
Clearly these christians follow their god Jesus's example of healing the sick, and helping the poor...waitaminute, they despise the sick and the poor...wtf????
This man walking through a crowd of evil right wingers has guts, and my respect..
Would have thrown rocks at him and spat on him as the Romans marched him up to the execution site.
wow what can I say! (as resident libertarian) I just love the idea of govt competing with insurance companies (I like competition) and would like it if govt could actually "compete" some of their profit out of the bastards!...
but I got a problem with the $3,800 fine part of it...
I also think that the corporations own the govt and therefore wouldnt be "competition...
and I think Public option means...
option 1. get healthcare from "govt"...
option 2. get healthcare from "private"
option 3. opt for no healthcare... (cuz I cant afford it) ...and pay a freakin' $3,800 fine.
...and just leave it to govt to call it an option... (with a 3800 dollar fine as one of the options)!!!!!!...can you say, Orwellian doublespeak?
If you don't buy private health coverage in massachusetts, the fine is $912 a year, and it's going up...
Many Bay Staters like me can't afford the insurance, and it's cheaper to pay the fine.
Where does $3,800 come from? If people can't afford to pay for health coverage, clearly they can't afford the fine...
I could never afford a $3,800 fine.
What if a person doesn't pay the $3,800 fine- will they be sent to prison?
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