Updated: Ron Paul Tears Down Saint Ronnie While Debating Hostage Negotiation Issue
In the foreign policy section of the Republican debate, Michele Bachmann once again acted as spokeswoman for the Dominionists worldwide as she castigated Ron Paul for saying we should withdraw aid from Israel. She then went on to say that Libya and Afghanistan Iraq should reimburse us for "liberating them", and finally declared flatly that the US never, ever negotiates with terrorists for hostages or anything else.
The Bachmann doctrine: We're gonna come in and strafe your country, kill tens of thousands of your people, and you will be so grateful you'll offer to reimburse us for that!
In between this and the next segue, Herman Cain calls the Guantanamo Bay detainees hostages, and declares he would never release them. Um, ok. They'd be our hostages, then.
To which Ron Paul asked all of them whether or not they denied that Ronald Reagan negotiated arms for hostages in the 80s.
You could have heard a pin drop in that Republican audience. I don't think anyone was prepared for it. And then Rick Santorum began to hem and haw and admit that there were indeed such negotiations because Iran is a sovereign state.
Indeed, Iran is (and was) a sovereign state. A sovereign state who took diplomats hostage. Even in war, it's accepted that diplomats are untouchable. Send them home, make them persona non grata, but taking them hostage is just not done. Until Iran did it.
Newt then made some lame comment to rehab Ronnie, saying it was really just all part of a plot that he didn't know about at the time, but when he discovered it, he was appalled. Alzheimer's excuse, Newtie?
I think it's remarkable to hear the audience react with stunned silence when Ron Paul speaks the truth about what Saint Ronnie did and did not do. Guess Michele ought to brush up on her Reaganalia before she opens her mouth at another debate.
Update: I replaced the clip so that the entire exchange is now there, including Herman Cain's declaration that Guantanamo Bay detainees are hostages, along with Ron Paul's pointed question about Reagan. Apologies for the confusion.
COOPER: Should we cut foreign aid to Israel?
REP. MICHELE BACHMANN (R-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No, we should not be cutting foreign aid to Israel. Israel is our greatest ally. The biggest problem is the fact...
(APPLAUSE)
... that the president -- the biggest problem with this administration in foreign policy is that President Obama is the first president since Israel declared her sovereignty put daylight between the United States and Israel. That heavily contributed to the current hostilities that we see in the Middle East region.
Cutting back on foreign aid is one thing. Being reimbursed by nations that we have liberated is another. We should look to Iraq and Libya to reimburse us for part of what we have done to liberate these nations.
(APPLAUSE)
Now, I need to add something on this issue of negotiating for hostages. This is a very serious issue. For any candidate to say that they would release the prisoners at Guantanamo in exchange for a hostage would be absolutely contrary to the historical nature of the United States and what we do in our policy. That's naive; we cannot do that. The United States has done well because we have an absolute policy: We don't negotiate.
COOPER: Herman Cain, I've got to give you 30 seconds, because she was referring to -- basically saying you were naive or if -- if that's what you were suggesting.
CAIN: No, I -- I said that I believe in the philosophy of we don't negotiate with terrorists. I think -- I didn't say -- I would never agree to letting hostages in Guantanamo Bay go. No, that wasn't -- that wasn't the intent at all.
But let me go back to this, if I could, very quickly in the time that I have left, the question that you asked about, foreign aid. My approach is an extension of the Reagan approach: Peace through strength, which is peace through strength and clarity. If we clarify who our friends are, clarify who our enemies are, and stop giving money to our enemies, then we ought to continue to give money to our friends, like Israel.
COOPER: You have 30 seconds, Congressman Paul, and then we've got to go.
PAUL: Oh, yes. As a matter of fact, I don't want to make a statement. I want to ask a question. Are you all willing to condemn Ronald Reagan for exchanging weapons for hostages out of Iran? We all know that was done.
SANTORUM: That's not -- Iran was a sovereign country. It was not a terrorist organization, number one.
PAUL: Oh, they were our good friends back then, huh?
SANTORUM: They're not our good friends. They're -- they're -- they're a sovereign country, just like the -- the Palestinian Authority is not the good friends of Israel.
PAUL: He negotiated for hostages.
SANTORUM: There's -- there's a role -- we negotiated with hostages (inaudible) the Soviet Union. We've negotiated with hostages, depending on the scale. But there's a difference between releasing terrorists from Guantanamo Bay in response to a terrorist demand...
PAUL: But they're all suspects. They're not terrorists. You haven't convicted them of anything.
SANTORUM: Then -- then -- then negotiating with other countries, where we may have an interest, and that is certainly a proper role for the United States, too.
Hi -- This looks interesting but the vid cuts off at 1:35, before Ron Paul actually speaks. IT's odd because the frame says the length is 3:33, but alas.
Unless there's something my computer is doing wrong....
Keep up the good work, as always!
I don't know what I'm going to do if any of these idiots ends up in the white house. I've already had to deal with the Bush years. I'd wake up every morning to NPR and every morning I got up to my own voice saying "What a frigging (not really frigging) idiot" or in Chaney's case "That SOB."
Jeanne
Same here Jeanne.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
My TV and radio just pretty much stayed off during the Bush years. In the case of the TV, I didn't even plug it in for 6 months after moving in 2003. In retrospect, I guess I wasn't really getting value out of my "lifetime" TiVo subscription. It still doesn't get much use, having been relegated to the basement with the weight bench. The elliptical machine, now, that's useful, 'cause you've always got clothes that you've worn but can wear again, but still you don't want to put them in the closet with the clean stuff.
But I regress -- back to the subject at hand of the Repub candidates bashing each other: I'm kinda reminded of the SNL "debate" where McCain encourages the Democrats to "go ahead, fight among yourselves" or something like that. Except in this case, I hope it keeps the infighting party out of the white house. Because "Bush-lite" is still better than "Batshit-crazy-the-end-is-near-let's-screw-it-all."
That SOB CRIMINAL!
Ever notice how irons have a setting for permanent press? I don't get it.
Steven Wright
Ron Paul question either...the video cuts out with Herman Cain speaking.
The Ron Paul question is the part I'd really like to see.
One other question...regarding display ads here:
I'm getting this red square box ad, for 'Algoma University' that sits right over the first comment.
I've been searching for that little 'x' or a 'close option'...it's just not there.
Yes, it's apparently a Canadian university, so perhaps only us Canucks are receiving this...but it's really annoying & not sure how to get rid of it. It comes up on every thread I look at, on C&L, when I view the comments sections.
Am I missing some easy solution?
thing.
gogetem...at least I know I'm not hallucinating! ;)
Weird. It still ends at 1:35! Damn!
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
clip thanks.
My you could hear a pin drop when Ron Paul said that Reagan negotiated. I love when he goes off the Repub reservation about the number of military bases, imperialism and blowback....
(In the 2008 race he gave a history lesson on the 53 Iran coup, and the blowback of the hostage crisis.
Giuliani wanted Paul to apologize to the audience, and he replied he'd get Rudy a reading list)
You have to appreciate that one of them can say something so real the room goes quiet. Too bad about all those other libertarian ideas though.....
Paul's the epitome of the "stopped clock is right twice a day" aphorism. His few on-target ideas may hit those two exact times, but everything else fits into the infinite ticks of the clock in between.
"Whatever your particular problem is, I promise you, the Republicans are not the least bit interested in solving it. They are interested in two things, and two things only: making you afraid of it, and telling you who's to blame for it."
He's only a Libertarian (or libertarian) in the laissez-faire economic sense. Since you used the little "l", I suppose that's what you meant, too.
In matters of government interference in our lives, he toes the party line. E.g., you'd think a Libertarian would be pro-choice, wouldn't you? But the "Ron Paul 2012" and "We Vote Pro-Life" signs on the Catholic houses in my neighborhood say otherwise.
If you're a business, well, he's all against the government "getting all up in your shit," as they say.
The new clip should be 3:33 not the original 1:30 or so.
between Rick Santorum and Ron Paul will be making the newspapers tomorrow morning.....
It should!!!!
I mean, ALL THINGS RONALD REAGAN is where it's at for this crowd.
I think Ron Paul had a lot of guts to mention it.
And the media SHOULD cover it.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
This is what infuriates me about Congressman Ron Paul: He is a libertarian on the issue of foreign wars and aid to Israel and then pulls his ultra-right wing conservatism in regards to the right of a woman to choose an abortion and equality for gays/lesbians.
Election 2012: Be Educated! Be Active! Vote!
www.PhoenixJustice.com
The GOP can't handle the truth? What a shock.
With the Heritage Foundation pushing for the deification of Saint Ronny, GOP candidates would never dare voice that President Reagan was anything other than the true slayer of Soviet communism, a cutter of taxes and all that other bullshit.
Election 2012: Be Educated! Be Active! Vote!
www.PhoenixJustice.com
debate.
It killed itself, by bankrupting itself in the weapons race. Ray-guns was simply an actor with a good line or two who knew when to use them (notice I didn't say he was a good actor -- he sucked at that, too). "Mr. Gorbachov, tear down this wall" was one of the phoniest bullshit lines ever. Could anyone really think it came down because of Reagan or because of the US?
In the race to self-destruction by bankruptcy in the arms race, we always were neck and neck with the Soviets, and sadly, we're approaching the finish line.
which is decidedly not a sovereign state but a terrorist group on the U.S. list of terrorist organizations. Silly facts.
Hezbollah was *not* holding the hostages taken by Iran in 1979.
different hostages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Con...
...and I suspect Santorum was as well. However, Hezbollah may have been holding them but it was at the behest of Iran, and they were released when Iran said they should be released.
no doubt. But back to the Douche's reparations meme, what about reparations for decades of propping up repressive torturing murderous regimes for the multinational corporations and arms profiteers.
The first casualty of republicanism is the truth.
Party politics are not only undemocratic, they are antidemocratic.
hopefully this one works.
the video now shows everything you spoke about.
Wow...A republican brings up 'The October Surprise'...where Reagan and his VP HW Bush made a deal with the Iranians to hold the American Hostages longer than need be...not allowing President Carter to negotiate their release. Reagan then won the Presidency and the hostages were released one minute after Reagan took office. Isn’t that Treason????
Yes, quite treasonous, but I believe Ron Paul is referring to the Iran-Contra scandal not The October Surprise.
The October Surprise and Iran-contra are one and the same...Reagan and HW Bush engaged in secret negoations with Iran to keep the hostages until after the 1980 Presidential Election...while Carter was trying to gain their release. There by stealing the election..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_surprise...
does Raygun therefore regret his entire pathetic Presidency that put us in the mess we're now in? Well, a little late...
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
..... Ronnie used " I can't recall", or words to that effect 150 times in his testimony before congress. Newt who ?!?! Can you say ... irrelevant?
"I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative.”
- John Stuart Mill
which is a terrorist organization
Bob Fisk's The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East. If you have any illusions about Israel left, this book will dispel them. It's also required reading if you want to understand anything about the middle east. Sometimes you turn into what you hate. Look at the R party!
http://www.amazon.com/Great-War-Civilisation-...
"I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative.”
- John Stuart Mill
Actually, she said Iraq and Libya. Nothing about Afghanistan. Still whacky. It's not like Iraq ordered a liberation to go and then refused to pay.
thanks, I fixed it.
He absolutely does NOT get the whole point of taking hostages. You don't take a hostage in order to keep him forever, for fuck's sake.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
He did call those in Gitmo "hostages." How does a moron become a multi-millionaire?
the U.S. went into Iraq...'not to occupy' as was said, by Bushie, at the beginning...but ended up doing just that.
More than 100,000 (a conservative estimate) Iraqis have died & more than 4 million have been displaced since Bush/Cheney decided they 'needed' to invade Iraq.
Private U.S. military companies, mainly Blackwater, ran rampant...killing & harassing Iraqi civilians.
Rebuilding of infrastructure that was destroyed by the invasion of Iraq either did not happen or plods along at a snail's pace, due to contractors & agencies overbilling &/or pocketing monies from the U.S. government...leaving the Iraqi people much worse off with infrastructure & services, than they were before the invasion.
Indeed, Michelle, the people of Iraq surely do owe the U.S. government, not only their gratitude, but apparently whatever money they might have left...to repay the U.S. for the horrors resulting from Bush & Cheney's 'Shock & Awe'.
You & the rest of your arrogant & uninformed fellow candidates should just go back home & live your sheltered lives, all the while believing that the great ole U.S. of A. is the best in the world.
You have no idea of what goes on in the rest of the world, nor do you care.
Liberation reparations. What a great idea for reducing the deficit. Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, all gotta bite the bullet and pay through the nose under a Bachmann presidency. Why stop there. I seem to remember a little thing called Desert Storm from a few years ago and Kuwait is just loaded with oil and money, maybe they should kick in as well.
Grenada, Panama, South Korea, Japan, Germany and all those European countries that we liberated in WW2, well, they need to pay up also.
The only problem,...what if they don't wanna pay? What are we gonna do? Invade 'em again?
that would be mentioned on MJ...but I won't be home tomorrow...early start, long day.....but please someone make sure there's an update somewhere to see if that would have gotten any mention on MJ...
Thanks...
(spending the majority of the day at the hospital)
see you soon.
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
After the extreme disappointment that is Barack Obama I am ready to vote for Paul. I don't see eye to eye with him, but on the most important issue of all, our empire, he is the only candidate saying what needs to be said. Our bloated military budget and imperial designs are destroying this country.
Qual, as much as I've expressed disappointment with Mr. Obama the POTUS vs Candidate Obama, to vote for Paul is akin to using an axe to remove a fly from your friend's nose. Paul says some things we can agree with, as was noted in the string, but he and his equally batshit son would have us live in the Randian utopia where individuals/corps/local gov say who can eat at the Woolworth counter or where to ride in the bus, if allowed to ride at all.
Yes, trim the military budget. Yes, cut back aid to states like Israel who continually bite the hand that feeds them and gets Americans killed for blindly backing them and vetoing any criticisms in the UN. I'm all for that. I wish Mr. Obama had a liberal primary opponent just for putting his feet to the fire.
But to vote for Paul? Dude, remove that beam from your eye.
Men are basically smart or dumb and lazy or ambitious. The dumb and ambitious ones are dangerous and I get rid of them. The dumb and lazy ones I give mundane duties. The smart ambitious ones I put on my staff. The smart and lazy ones I make my commanders.
Is one crazy **** .....
Reality has a liberal bias
Herman call the Guantanamo prisoners "Hostages"?!?!?! Well, well, well.
"I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative.”
- John Stuart Mill
Nothing against Israel, but...what do they ever do for the US to be called "our greatest ally"?
...lots of weapons from the "MIC"
They are such good customers in fact that lobbyists from the military industrial complex actually bribe congress to pass budgets to give Israel "billions of dollars a year" so they can purchase even more shit than they normally would.
A "good ally" is of course in the eye of the beholder....!
(for instance) ...if you work in a bomb factory or own stock in a company that makes fighter jets you (might) consider Israel one of our "greatest ally's"
however ...If you are pissed that banks are rich and govt is broke,15 trillion in debt, and threatening to take away social security whilst they give billions to Israel ,while still overspending by about a trillion dollars a year, ...and you are definitely NOT afraid of evil muslim terrists then...
....they might not be one of your greatest ally's. ...?
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
Not the entertainment value - like watching Paul bring up Saint Ronnie in a bad light - had this debate been televised on FoxNews, Paul would have immediately disappeared through the trap door under his lectern. Nor is it watching Herman Cain twist and turn into "hostage sausage," or see Bachmann confuse which continent Libya is part of; the purpose in watching this nonsense is to stay vigilant. Yes, Obama has been a disappointment on several levels - the wars are stil ongoing, Guantanamo is still open and operating, Healthcare Reform should have had single payer - or at least a bigger exaction carved out of the opposition for dispensing with it, and way way too many attempts to "compromise" with those who have publicly, repeatedly expressed desire for his electoral ruin. All fair criticisms. But ladies and gents, these debates show us the face of the "loyal opposition," what the alternative has to offer. Would you want any of these people selecting the contractor to pump out your septic tank? If not - then why the hell would you let any of them close enough to the Oval Office to determine the course of the Supreme Court for the next quarter to a half century, as will no doubt be the case when Ginsburg steps down, or Kennedy or Scalia decide to pack it in? We all need the reminder - especially anyone thinking (on any tangent) that "Free Market Ron Paul" provides a refreshing alternative.
The reason you could hear a pin drop is because I think they were shocked out of their self induced fact free coma. They can't handle facts. If it is a Dem who calls them out for their hypocrisy they can just yell and call them names, but if a very popular libertarian says it they can't process it and then they begin to question their fake reality.
The sad thing is that audience is like a windows based PC stalling, their hourglass is doing spins in front of their stroked out eyes....and then Newt reboots them.
bys1955
one of the candidates. I loved that you could have heard a pin drop after Paul's initial Reagan statement. I'd wager a bet that's the first time many in that (baffled) audience had ever heard of it.
What a bunch of cracker backed crackpots.
they took a quick nap.
I can imagine somebody, namely Bush the First, leaning over old Raygun in the hospital bed and saying "Quit with that bull about you deciding anything, and quit stoking the paleo-conservatives with talk about gold standards, limited gub'mint or any of that sh*t, or the MIC will kennedy you for real." Ol' Ronnie got the message, alright, for the White House became an Agency shop courtesy of Iran-Contra. And it's been a spook shop ever since...
What a retarded bitch. Seriously. Note the deafening silence when Paul brought that out. No boos, no cheers. Just a stunned crowd whose heads were about to explode when confronted with the truth.
how much more truth is out there....
that can't be handled.
I'm not voting for Paul
Heck, I'm not voting for anyone this time around, but I'd be willing to send his campaign money just so he can continue to play the anarchist "Joker" to the GOP debates. It was gold in 2008 and its even MORE entertaining with the current lot of imbeciles running this go around. If the GOP didn't have Paul in these debates there would never be ANY historical context at all
...is a figment of present day conservatives' minds. Almost nothing of what they believe about Reagan is true.
That is so obvious that I heard Richard Viguerie admit as much today on the radio. When someone lays out all the things that Reagan did and follows immediately with questions about reality and Reagan, it's pretty difficult for anyone to continue to claim that Reagan was the conservative purist that he's often claimed to be.
What Republicans and conservatives like most about Reagan is simple -- two election victories for governor in California and two presidential wins, especially the second one, which was a landslide. No candidate with Reagan's politics and policies would have any chance of winning the Republican presidential nomination today. Added to the current field, a candidate like Reagan would be running dead last.
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