Keith Olbermann Offers Sean Hannity $1000 For Every Second He Can Endure Waterboarding
Keith Olbermann offers Sean Hannity $1000 for every second he can endure waterboarding. Lawrence O'Donnell weighs in on why someone like Hannity would offer to be waterboarded in the first place.
Olbermann: You'll do it for charity? For the troops families? I'll take you up on that Sean. For every second you last, $1000. Live or on tape provided other networks cameras are there. $1000 a second Sean because this is no game. This is serious stuff. Put your money where your mouth is, and your nose. And I'll double it when you admit you feared for your life. When you admit the horrible truth. Waterboarding, a symbol of the last administration, is torture.
[....]
O'Donnell: The reason Sean Hannity thinks torture is a good idea. The reason Sean Hannity thinks it works is because it would work on him. There are two different kinds of people out there in the world. The warriors which are a very, very tiny minority, less than 1% of our population is ever going to face combat and then there's the rest of us.
I am like Sean Hannity, one of those cowards, just like Dick Cheney who has refused throughout my life to enter the military and ever subject myself to anything dangerous occupationally where I might lose a tooth. That is exactly Sean Hannity's approach to life and he has exactly the same cowardly fear that I do of combat or submitting myself to anything of the kind of risk the American military does. And so people who live where Sean Hannity lives and those safe places and the safe Cheney home where no one in the Cheney family would ever submit themselves to military service, ever submit themselves to the risk of torture. They think torture works because it would work on them.
Because they are soft. They are weak people compared to our military service people and they would crack under torture. But al Qaeda, people who have devoted their lives to destroying their enemy, the people are willing to die in their exercises, they were all willing to die on 9-11. Sean Hannity thinks torture is going to work on them because he has never, never known the kind of commitment that those people have and nothing he's done in his life measures that kind of commitment that the American military has or that our enemies have. Our enemies are more committed than Sean Hannity will ever be.
Tis an interesting premise even it's just to prove a point, but still I vote no to any torture, even if it's to Sean Hannity. It is not a game.
If a dumb f**k like Hannity, who makes a living with his big mouth makes a claim like that then I say go for it. In the dark world of sadistic sex, torture is common. Something tells me that Sean may be into it. Its always the self-righteous who are the sickest behind closed doors.
Now if we can only get O'Reilly to dangle his ball sack over a meat grinder to raise money for 9/11 family victims.....
First, he knows he's not going to die, it's for entertainment purposes. The effect is not the same as if he was a political prisoner in Egypt.
I've never heard of death by "testicle electrocution".
Here is what should be suggested:
You Hanity, agree to summit yourself to our “professional” staff for 2 weeks. No one, including yourself, will know where you are, you will have no contact with anyone except our professional staff. We will have complete control over you for 2 weeks. We will do nothing that was not done to people under Bush’s enhanced interrogation polices. We will broadcast live on the internet for all to see. We will tape all we do and you will have a complementary copy for you home viewing pleasure.
At the end of the two weeks we will have you confessing to killing you parents, raping your child and using your wife as a prostitute to advance your career.
If we do not have you confessing to theses thing we will give you or your favorite charity $1,000,000.
The key here is it is the total control you captors have over you. Your every move, every breath, food, warmth, whether you sleep or not etc that allows them to get you to say everything they want you to say. Two weeks is more than enough. But of course it would be wrong to do this.
Have you had your balls attached to an electrical stimulous for an hour?, a minute? Any length of time?
I'll bet an hour would do it. A minute would make you wish they would stop.
How long to recover (if you could?)
If you do not understand that there is more than pain to suffering, you live in a very small world. You - and I - do not know what it's like for a body to react to elevated CO2 levels in the blood because the lungs can't expel CO2 and inhale Oxygen. Strapped to a table. With no control over when you will be able to breathe again.
George Washington and his colleagues knew that the torturer was the enemy not only of the nation they wanted to build, but all mankind. And they forbade it. The American Justices at Nuremberg punished the Nazi torturers for their crimes against humanity.
Why do you hate America so, Dons Johnson?
... what you think it means Mr. Don Johnson.
Egypt by those who perform it on political prisoners there. I would be for that if Sean has the balls.
That or if he submits to have it done to him just 30 times in a month.
Because it's not a game.
Goodnight, Frau Blücher
..did you see Limpy smack himself in the face and call it "torture", there, he tortured himself. Uh, Rush, even if I liked you, even if I didn't want to hurt you, calling a mere smack in the face torture really doesn't cut it. Let me or anyone else for that matter smack you as if we really wanted to torture you and let's see what you say then. Coward.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
Hannity will never agree to be Waterboarded unless he has control of the situation unlike the Prisoners.
Place complete Control in the hands of the questioner.
Ask only one question, "Did you fly a plane into the World Trade Center?" NO, will not be an option.
Waterboard every time he refuses to confess! I wonder how many times it will take to get a "YES" answer?
Donaldd
I'm no fan of Chris Hitchens, but he subjected himself to waterboarding several months back. They barely wet the towel covering his face and he jerked convulsively. He couldn't even give the signal to stop. He concluded that it was torture and observed that he would have said anything to make it stop.
See attached link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58
You cannot fake resistance to waterboarding. For anyone who has almost drowned (including myself in a public pool back when I was 8 years old) you panic immediately. I still have nightmares about it.
Not my favorite individual..but he underwent waterboarding to prove a point about how it is not torture. He changed his mind in about 3 seconds.
There have been several people who have done this to prove that it is not that bad, and even though they knew that they could say enough...the agreed that it is definitely torture...even when you know that it is not "for real".
"Now if we can only get O'Reilly to dangle his ball sack over a meat grinder"
For "10 seconds" ;)
to Sean Hannity. It is a game.
let the games begin.
Look, I know Hannity is a gasbag, and we know he'd be begging for mercy in under a minute, because he's nothing more than a bully. His offer to be 'waterboarded for charity' is stupid and disgusting.
But Keith's offer to take him up on it at $1000/second?
That just trivializes the whole thing. It makes it into the same banal, mindless crap we can see on an episode of Survivor.
You did neither a serious subject or yourself any credit with this one, Keith.
is incredibly resistant. 15 seconds is something of a record.
Keith could afford his offer with pocket change: Hannity'd be begging within 5 seconds.
What a sorry sorrogate ass lame excume. I bet you can do better than that.
It doesn't trivialize anything. Its people like Hannity who trivialize torture. Keith is making a point and I hope he succeeds in his quest.
Even this jerk off agrees...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58
No, ladies and gentlemen, this is most assuredly NOT a game. However, as the Hannity punks (those of his worthless ilk) are gutless mouth-runners, its time for them to realize that indeed this is torture, first used during the Spanish Inquisition. I have spent almost my entire working career working shoulder to shoulder with our GI's, and have known those that have gone through SERE school. You think its not torture Hannity? Its put up or shut your pie hole time, worm. I've known POW's that have more guts in one of their cells, than Hannity worm has in entire worthless slug ridden carcass. No, I do concur, this is NOT a game, and its time for the rodents to come to that conclusion, and stop trivializing and defending its use. One more time Hannity, et al - this country does NOT torture - and those who advocate and try to legalize, sanitize and trivialize its use, MUST pay the same penalty as those tried at Nuremberg. Don't do the crime, Bush crime family worms, if you can't do the time.
The people like Hannity who claim it isn' torture and who asked for the SERE techniques to be reverse enginnered has no idea what the whole point of SERE training. It's not to prevent our soldiers from giving info while being tortured. It's to prevent the soldiers from becoming basket cases and be able to have enough sense in order to possibly plan an escape.
It's to simulate the stresses and threats of being behind enemy lines.
*Survival, because you may be on your own.
*Evasion, because the enemy will be looking for you, whether you're one of a handful of survivors from a decimated unit, or a downed pilot.
*Resistance, because the odds are against you. You're on unfamiliar ground with limited resources, you may be injured, and you've got to sleep. Preparing for the possibility of capture is a necessary step. Simulated interrogation and torture is part of this, but not the whole of it.
*Escape, because - just like the time limit imposed by limited resources and energy (food/sleep/health) - the danger of your breaking and ceding information increases. You need to be paying attention to your surroundings - collect information from the inside, to be able to identify guards and personnel. (Ultimately, if you escape or are rescued, you will be debriefed for this information.)
It's fighting smart instead of playing macho tough guy. It's not the fictional jeopardy Jack Bauer faces, but the real thing.
'Nuf said
That lilly liver whiney bitch would not last a minute. I can't stand that man (obviously). I hope Keith keeps challenging him on this.
It takes courage.
It takes courage, albeit of a somewhat lesser degree, to sign up to defend your country in arms.
When one enlists, especially in a time of crisis, one has conceded one's life. One is effectively deceased, until the date when one's enlistment expires. One's life is not one's own. One is expendable, any time, any place for any reason.
Cheney? Hannity? Limbaugh? O'Reilly?
Bawk-bawk-b'GAWK!
Chickenshit chickenhawks.
I heard Bill Maher say this on Politically Incorrect, but I disagree
This is more a sign of desperation.
Would you call some kid who mows down his classmates before himself brave?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
WWII Kamikaze pilots are a better example.
Their plane's canopies were welded shut.
Why people would serve such things at an evening soiree I have no idea.
It's also what hillbillies call their bathroom.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Uh no their canopies weren't welded shut. They couldn't get in them otherwise. They voluntered for it and the records show that when they had time they opened their canopies and bailed out. They had far more volunteers then they had planes for the attacks.
"Uh no their canopies weren't welded shut. They couldn't get in them otherwise."
No shit, Sherlock. They welded the canopies shut AFTER the pilots where IN THE PLANE.
Do you work for the Gov't?
carried, I very much doubt they had a blow torch in the vicinity.
Probably urban legend, the Japanese were *that* brainwashed, that is why Truman decided to drop the bombs rather than risk a land invasion on one of the most fanatical populations in the history of mankind.
"...one of the most fanatical populations in the history of mankind."
Have you had a good look at 'Merikkka? Flip on the teevee and have a listen to the wingnuts.
(The packaging is different, but the message, not so much.)
far left loon >.<
Are you kidding me? Most of the hijackers had no idea they were heading into a flaming ball of death. I'm sorry but I give much more credit to a soldier.
Cowards kill the innocents.
... that we see those 9/11 victims as innocent, but to their side those people were criminals to a degree.
I'm almost willing to believe the other side of: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter... One man's innocent is another man's enemy.
It's the same when we call civilian casualties "collateral damage", but the other side sees nothing but the slaughtering of innocents.
"When are we going to stop trying to tell elected officials what to do. Our job is to spend the taxpayers' money the best way we can." -- Tommy Watkins, Justice of the Peace, Crawford County, Arkansas
"....that we see those 9/11 victims as innocent, but to their side those people were criminals to a degree."
So a 37 year old mother of 3, black woman from Newark is an enemy? I'm sorry but that's BS.
Look how groups in society demonize each other. We're guilty of it to a degree when we demonize the Republican party and all the members within.
What about the way many people treated Africans during the height of the slave trade here in America? They were nothing more than animals and property to some... the women and the children.
We slaughtered whole families of Native Americans because many believed that they were savages.
"When are we going to stop trying to tell elected officials what to do. Our job is to spend the taxpayers' money the best way we can." -- Tommy Watkins, Justice of the Peace, Crawford County, Arkansas
In all your points above none ended with the victims reacting by committing mass murder.
I haven't seen Republicans being murdered and I've never heard of a Black American killing innocents in such a way.
Okay, granted there never any major uprisings of Africans because of the way we treated them.
But what about the responses by some Native Americans? There were numerous raids and attacks upon innocents.
"When are we going to stop trying to tell elected officials what to do. Our job is to spend the taxpayers' money the best way we can." -- Tommy Watkins, Justice of the Peace, Crawford County, Arkansas
......how long ago was that?
I'm speaking in historical context.
You couldn't believe that no one would ever see a mom of three as the enemy. I gave two historical examples in which that one group of people saw another group as either (A) like cattle or (B) less than human. Thus the "superior" group went through the systematic destruction of the (B) group that would amount to genocide by today's standards.
"When are we going to stop trying to tell elected officials what to do. Our job is to spend the taxpayers' money the best way we can." -- Tommy Watkins, Justice of the Peace, Crawford County, Arkansas
Native Americans didn't go to another country to kill innocents. They were being invaded and the settlers had guns, most Indians didn't. They were protecting THEIR land
You refuse to believe that a person can view another person as less than human.
Okay, but we've invaded sacred tribal lands in the Middle East, so those people brought the fight to our shores because WE WERE HERE.
By your same logic... the Native Americans didn't have to go to another country because (wait for it...) WE WERE HERE!
I've made my point. I think most clear headed people can see that YES... you can view another person innocent or not as less than human and/or the enemy in order to kill them.
"When are we going to stop trying to tell elected officials what to do. Our job is to spend the taxpayers' money the best way we can." -- Tommy Watkins, Justice of the Peace, Crawford County, Arkansas
"You refuse to believe that a person can view another person as less than human."
Your assumption is wrong. When one person views another as being less then human and kills them with no regard to the fact they had nothing to do with the situation is cowardice.
You didn't even come close to proving anything.
here. Same goes for the rethugs, conservatards or
any other manner of pond scum we ought to be...
"Folks, this is not your father's Republican Party."
Joe Biden
No, I didn't think so.
That was to illustrate my point. A human life is a human life, regardless of the labels.
"When are we going to stop trying to tell elected officials what to do. Our job is to spend the taxpayers' money the best way we can." -- Tommy Watkins, Justice of the Peace, Crawford County, Arkansas
A soldier knows the consciences, a child on a commercial airliner facing certain death does not.
You can not absolve the American population from responsibility for acts that were carried out by your government. I'm not saying this mother you talk about deserved to die, but America is your creation and no one else's.
Who would you blame? Canada? Laos? New Zealand?
far left loon >.<
The hijackers didn't know they were going to commit suicide? That is probably the most inane sentence I have read in a long while.
Do pray tell... what do you think the 911 hijackers thought they were doing instead? Going to Disneyland?
You left out chickenblood to add to chickenshit chichenhawks.
"Let's talk dirty to the animals"
i considered it like jail. only you had a gun.
Hannity, Beck, O'Reilly, Savage...just look at them...I work with 150 pound sixteen year olds who would make these people instantly piss on themselves. I really think Hannity would burst into tears if he were waterboarded.
..it only counts if some bit of information must be gotten from him and the "interrogator" is non-biased. It would be most realistic if the interrogator actually didn't like Hannity but I figure it would take Hannity about 1 second to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear. Then of course they would need to be sure Hannity told the truth so they would have to continue the waterboarding until they were certain Hannity didn't lie, which he would. Does KO really make that much money?
torture = BAD, The USA does not torture! Special Prosecutor now!
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
Hannity is a combat dodging conservative frat boy wuss. He'd last about 3 seconds on the board before he'd start crying faster than John Boehner.
he never went to University.
too stupid...
and he's a gutless punk who'd piss himself in basic training...
to weasel out of this, or has someone doin the waterboarding that he has paid to make it look bad, but isn't as panic inducing as the real deal.
Or is paid to make it look like it ISN'T that bad, and people are upset over nothing. That's probably what's gonna happen.
goddamn fascist assholes!
Oh, and btw...fuck hannity and faux noise!
Hannity will not be able to fake it - its an autonomic motor response of the body to water going where air is supposed to go, and unacceptable levels of CO2. Its not a controllable reaction. He will weasel out. - or be forced to shut his pie hole. Ask a GI who has gone through SERE how controllable it is. And in SERE training its being done by the "good guys".
but me guts tell me, that Hannity is up to somethin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbPWMdYRz6k
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Count Rugen: "... and be honest. This is for posterity."
Dread Pirate Sean: *waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah*
With his viewership, is he sure he has $1000?
The question to all people against Enhanced Interrogation Techniques is;
If a loved one's life was in jeopardy, and a thug had info that could save that loved one, would you dunk that person in the water or, make their room 50 degrees, or put them in close quarters with non poisonous bugs etc. to save the loved one. BTW, with a doctor standing by. If you say yes your a hypocrite and if you say no you are an IDIOT!
Not "Enhanced Interrogation Technique". That's a made up term by you chicken shits.
answer the question!
There is your answer.
Now answer mine, how would you like it if YOUR family member was a POW and was tortured?
I would feel very bad, because the other side actually tortures. They saw off heads with dull blades like Danny Pearl. They disfigure our soldiers for life like John McCain.
You have no idea what type of torture methods the CIA performed.
You would feel really bad? Oh, how human of you.
Growing up the one thing I always understood, "America is above torture". Now we are doing the same thing that Japanese solders where sent to prison for after WWII. You can't just pick and choose your morality. Its called being a "hypocrite".
were incurred when he crashed his plane, and was rescued.
He was treated for his injuries without anaesthesia, which the North Vietnamese reserved for treating the people McCain was trying to kill...
I don't think we have any record of a US citizen being tortured in Iraq, soldier or not.
and BTW, you never answered my question!
Torture is wrong. I would BLAME the terrorists not the fact that torture was used or not.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flimflam
That's why I take antihistamines.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
In your hypothetical, the bad guy has the knowledge you need to save someone. But how do YOU know he has that info that torture will reveal, BEFORE you torture him? If you know it already, why torture? Unless to try and prove you're some kind of "he-man"?
And if you DON'T know the info before you torture him, how do you know he'll give you the TRUTH?
My answer to your question is, your question deserves no answer from intelligent human beings.
"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" - Red Green
Freedom Ain't Free - Pay Your Share
it's an easy question, you would save your loved one or you wouldn't. You are too intelligent for that?
hey leftandleft, that's the point! you don't know what tactics they used either.
Your last point is argumentum ad ignoracio.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
... which is Latin for "argument by troll"
The options to extract information from an individual go far beyond the picture you are trying to paint. Open your mind and see that there may be better solutions that are more effective, and efficient.
What would make you so sure it would save anybody?
And what would we do if this person WHO was tortured really had no info but gave fake info which caused even more damage?
... of the enemy are irrelevant.
You cannot adopt those tactics, known or unknown, without surrendering the moral authority to lead your troops or a nation.
And are your morals subject to what the enemy chooses to practice? Really? You want to play, 'it's not as bad as all that, because they're doing worse?'
http://books.google.com/books?id=DFbSAhYO54MC...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
..by the Red Cross. They are the ONLY body required by International Law who can make the determination of what is and what isn't torture. End of Story there.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
Ok, gotta go give blood now!
My prefered method of giving blood:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwoRYvFIaaI
When I was in high school I had hair like Bates, and worn glasses since I was three.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Fri, 04/24/2009 - 06:29 — Navy Vet
If you know it already, why torture? Unless to try and prove you're some kind of "he-man"?
______________________________________________________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaY4HzVDVxI
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Would you torture someone 183 times in a month to exact a confession you knew would be false so you could add to an argument for a war you wanted to provoke which would cost your country lives, billions of dollars, and its reputation in the world?
"Folks, this is not your father's Republican Party."
Joe Biden
Well actually yes, because they got reliable intel from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed that saved an attack on LA.
And BTW, Obama is doing a pretty good job of ruining our reputation abroad!
The plotter of the LA attack was in custody before KSM was captured.
But your answer is that you would torture someone 183 times to get a false confession to help make the case for a preemtive war. Thanks.
"Folks, this is not your father's Republican Party."
Joe Biden
Unprovened right wing lies to justify torture...fuck off, O'Reilly's ass is missing your tongue.
I am leaving you fine folks with this!
While you live in such a moral world, where you think these killers deserve the same accord as military, Obama finds himself in a unique situation. He has started a debate that makes him an easy target if, God forbid we are attacked again, he will be blamed for making us weak. Whether you agree or not, that's the reality. So my point is, he gains nothing by pursuing this and places a lot at stake.
That any future attack is not from a right wing agency that may be represented by individuals that are similar in thought and opinion to you. Angry neo-conservatives are our greatest danger today. So grab your gun FlimFlam, stare out a window, and piss in a cup, because you never know who might be coming after you. Paranoia will kill you and others, so please relax.
I'm not the least bit angry. I have a nice life and a beautiful family.
I don't own any guns and I actually have a toilet and running water.
I not very paranoid, I just remember how I felt on 911 and I hope that my 2 beautiful daughters never have to live thru anything like that!
Very relaxed though, might go for a jog now.
... we got to watch it all unfold. One colleague had gotten on the last train leaving the WTC complex, then had to turn around and go back to the scene to coordinate the video coming out of NYC.
But our anger didn't matter. Our shock didn't matter. We had work to do, a job to do, and America was counting on us to bring them the story.
It's called professionalism.
(About three days later, people started calling in sick as the stress and impact came home. Lots of flaring tempers and impatience.)
what happened to the donating of blood? Lie much, do you?
me-oww!
waaaaa. argue for arguments sake. His only stance is his claim that torture works. No evidence of any kind. Just his say so.
Here flimflam
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/20/play...
You tell me.
You can't debate the issue because your position has no legal or moral grounds on which to stand.
So you resort to the 'You'll be sorry! We'll be attacked! It'll be Obama's fault! Waaaaaah!'
..we are attacked, not because of anything Obama does or doesn't do. In fact, if we do torture under Obama, we're more likely to be attacked, doncha' think?
Remember, they attacked us because of our freedoms! No one blamed W for the attacks in sept. '01 in spite of all that's come out since then. What's made us more vulnerable to attacks was the way W's administration decided to go to war with the Taliban and al Qaeda; it was to make rich people richer not really to get the bad guys. That's harsh but considering Rummy wanted to go to war on the cheap, there seems to be a measure of truth there as the campaign is on-going, eight years later. Very cynical I know but that doesn't eliminate any of the transgressions by W and his gang of thugs. When W told us to go shopping and that they would take care of the bad guys, you pretty much knew that there would be a cluster-f#ck. And then, going into Iraq based on lies and innuendo? Tell me how does that equate into your "24" life or death scenario? What if we were told about WMD's by a tortured prisoner and then we invaded and found what we found - nothing. What do you have to say about that? It is law, we don't torture. This is the society we live in. As to whether I'd be a hippocrit to not want to torture someone holding my loved one: I'd be emotional but since I know that torture wouldn't be effective, eventually, just like reality, I'd have to accept, at some point, the liklihood of the death of that relative. I wouldn't like it, I'd be emotionally distraught and ready for revenge but I would like to believe my humanity would help me get through. I might want to hurt the individual but it would be unrealistic for me to do any harm to the person in our society.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
Buh bye - don't let the door hit ya ~
I suspect the next terrorist attack on US soil will be from right wing domestic terrorists who can't stand the fact that we have a black president.
between real life and an episode of 24.
You should actually go to a psychiatrist, as that is a clear symptom of deteriorating mental health.
See my earlier response below, the attack on LA was discovered because one of the supposed "masterminds" dropped their cell phone in a gas station robbery. It wasn't the torture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. You have to investigate things that your told over the mass media, otherwise it makes you look like a fool when you regurgitate debunked reports.
not stenography.
evidence...
or just shut the fuck up
If your son's life was in jeopardy, and your daughter had info that could save him, would you hood your daughter, drag her off to a gulag, take complete control of her every action, deprive her of food and warmth, slam her into the wall repeatedly, and then waterboard her (your daughter)???
far left loon >.<
As I said, I have known POW's and their families - Hanoi Hilton, and NO dear heart, they would say the same thing, torture is torture, it is abhorrent, wrong and illegal! Not to mention that it does not work, and never has worked! Don't use the same excuses that were used in the Nuremberg trials by those defendants... yes, read the transcripts, its all there! The SS tried the same line of reasoning! They were hanged or put in prison until they died. The argument of "What if you're (fill in the blank) was (fill in the blank)" was tried and failed in a court of law, some 70 years ago.
I like how you closed your question to be answered in one way, otherwise be an idiot. Military interrogators have stated for years, while the Bush Admin was torturing prisoners to no avail, that they get more information by establishing a positive raport with the prisoner. Once trust is established, you know that information you are receiving is accurate.
Here's a question for you using your same scenario. What do you do after you tortured your thug and he gave you information. You follow that information just to find out that it wasn't true. How do you proceed? How do you know if the thug actually has any good information? How can you trust that anything that he says to stop the pain is the truth? Where does it end?
first of all, there are several instances where we know it worked!
secondly, no one has answered the question because anyone in their right mind would subject someone to these things to save a loved one.
Those are lies trying to be put out. Truthiness is what its called.
really!
The NSA picked up chatter about a plot to bring down the Brooklyn Bridge. The CIA crossed the intel and found that a detainee had info. Later the culprit was arrested in his NY apartment with all the neccesary tools to do the job and now sits in jail.
You should thank the intel community if you live in NY.
In the cases you mentioned above where was torture used?
They waterboarded Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. If stopped what he refered to as the "second wave" which was an attack on LA similar to 911. So ricky, it could've saved thousands. I don't have their names for you though!
You change a argument more than a 10 year old with ADD. This is the reason why I left the Yahoo political groups. You guys are all the same.
he would have given up the fictional third wave?
"Folks, this is not your father's Republican Party."
Joe Biden
how the waterboarding of that Khalid feller was able to slow down global warming, it also cured the common cold, brought better crops that year, and allowed scientist to solve a couple of long standing mathematical problems.
Waterboarding is watertastic!
this one instead of the whopeer about the Library Tower.
"Folks, this is not your father's Republican Party."
Joe Biden
really!
The NSA picked up chatter about a plot to bring down the Brooklyn Bridge.
What, if that was true, does that have to do with torture dumbass?
Chatter is chatter, not torture. wow
Regardless, you may be right about the Brooklyn Bridge thing. KSM confessed to be the leader of this after being tortured. My problem with this is that he was tortured immediately, and no other interrogation tactic was used to get the information. Now it's history. He was tortured under direct commands by the Bush Administration without even looking at other options. The adminsistration was so desperate to get information, this is what they resorted to. This is no excuse to support torture because the same information could have been extracted in other ways.
flimflam is the perfect moniker for such truth twisting bullshit.
One. Name one life saved.
"Folks, this is not your father's Republican Party."
Joe Biden
The Los Angeles thing, was thwarted because one of the supposed "masterminds" dropped his cell phone during a gas station robbery, and information from the phone spurred the investigation. The dirty bomb, well I think history shows that Jose Padilla wasn't even capable of a dirty bomb, but torture did not get us information about him, his passport did. Do you have other examples?
To answer your question. I would do neither. In your mind, this makes me an idiot. I would build a positive raport with the individual and gain his trust.
Now answer my questions. Open your mind, your making me think very little of you.
... were actually bothering to read responses instead of parroting the same crap over and over, you'd see that I *did* answer your little hypothetical, and I gave the reasons why your premise and the meanings you attach to YES and NO are incorrect.
It seems, of course, that you're incapable of following up on your arguments, and can only dance around complaining that no one is answering your question.
I am leaving you fine folks with this!
While you live in such a moral world, where you think these killers deserve the same accord as military, Obama finds himself in a unique situation. He has started a debate that makes him an easy target if, God forbid we are attacked again, he will be blamed for making us weak. Whether you agree or not, that's the reality. So my point is, he gains nothing by pursuing this and places a lot at stake
That's a new level of laziness for trolldom.
Considering your reality is based on fictional scenarios from a television show, while mine is based on law and actual moral strictures acquired from my Christian/Catholic upbringing, I'm more confident in my reality than yours.
And the next time you come over from Fox with O'Reilly's ass juice dripping off your lips...provide a single fact and make at least one point.
..morality and humanity at stake. That's what W did!
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
Sure. It will start another civil war, over the right to torture, and be the end of America. Once torture is legal, it won't be long before it's used on Americans.
Cheney might dig that scene.
far left loon >.<
Oh PLEASE provide links (not of Darth Cheney or Faux Nooz) to prove this particular point.
FB
99%
On a personal level, yes I might do something, but your hypothetical situation comes from several episodes per season of "24" and I'm willing to bet that real life doesn't quite work like that fictional TV show.
But the premise of your question doesn't create a situation in which it is viable to answer. Either we're a hypocrite or an idiot.
It's like asking a straight guy if he wants to fuck another guy in the ass or have someone's dick up his ass and that's the only two choices.
We're supposed to take a moral high ground here, we have to be better than the ones we fight.
"When are we going to stop trying to tell elected officials what to do. Our job is to spend the taxpayers' money the best way we can." -- Tommy Watkins, Justice of the Peace, Crawford County, Arkansas
How about a chick with a strap-on?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Now you're changing the hypothetical. We never got that luxury from flimflam.
And I think you may have to pay a little extra for that kind of service.
But hey... if that turns you on ... more power to you. However, you can see the absurdity of creating a hypothetical that garners not one decent response.
"When are we going to stop trying to tell elected officials what to do. Our job is to spend the taxpayers' money the best way we can." -- Tommy Watkins, Justice of the Peace, Crawford County, Arkansas
I prefer indecencies
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Have not watched the lobotomy box in about 14 years - its nothing but a sludge spewer. Read, investigate for yourself, use the net for research, and triple check the facts. People should watch or re-watch "Good night and Good Luck" Listen to what Murrow said.
and social equalizer people hoped it would be. It started about 13 years ago. Too bad you missed it. But you can catch up by using the IPod.
"Folks, this is not your father's Republican Party."
Joe Biden
Would you still be playing the 'good guys torture' routine if you knew your loved one would suffer equal abuse, measure for measure?
And you're also using the 'suppose this person knows something' - what if they don't? Would you still feel justified in torturing the suspect for knowledge he doesn't possess and which won't aid you in freeing your loved one?
Ultimately, whether or not I would exhibit sufficient personal anger or ethical weakness to torture a suspect does not change the fact that torture is against the law and in violation of international treaty (though, as a private citizen, I could only be held actionable for the first; the second only if I were acting in an official capacity for the government).
Saying no is not 'idiocy,' as you stipulate, but the role our laws and origins as a 'Christian nation' demand of us.
Remember, the law is on MY side. All you and other torture apologists have is weasel-talk and 'what-if' scenarios based on a frackin' television show.
In your strawman argument, how do you know the "thug" has information that could save a life? Because you pull this shit out of your ass.
You lack the courage and integrity to admit these acts are torture. Instead you choose to play word and "what if" games. You try to downplay the actions by using "newspeak" from the book 1984.
You have no honor.
..what then?
And two wrongs make it right?
We're not a civilized nation any longer?
You think that people don't realize this? Very compelling but when it led to nowhere except to a dead loved one, you've sacrificed your humanity and lowered yourself to the kidnappers' level. Nobody ever said being a Patriot or a Citizen or even being Human is easy. But if we don't act civil, we are not civil. If we establish laws and sign on to laws to achieve and maintain that civility, we must obey them or suffer the consequences.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
It's not torture, because we called it something else.
These loons in the right need to understand 1984 was a dystopian novel, not an instructions manual.
Their pervasive use of newspeak and double think is a sight to behold. Quite frightening, but I gotta hand it to Mr. Orwell. He saw these thugs coming over half a century ago.
but that doesn't make me a hypocrite. I'd likely kill somebody or close if they punched a defenseless loved one in the mouth, but I still oppose capital punishment as well. The state should not and cannot react the same way as someone would on a personal level. It is far different for the state to sanction torture and for me to be willing to torture someone when a loved one is in danger. When someone I love is in danger, I don't care about legal issues and am willing to suffer the consequences for the steps I take. The state used to be, and should be, above that type of visceral reaction.
"Ollie North did it!"
He sounded just like a spoiled little brat child the way he said that. "Ollie North did it!". Well Sean. You're not Ollie North. You may be a member of the same corrupt party that wrecked America as Ollie North. You may be as deceitful as Ollie North. You may be as big a wingnut as Ollie North. But you are not Ollie North and I doubt seriously you would last as long on the board as Ollie North.
......probably holds his hand over a lit bic lighter to impress his girlfriends. Screw him.
That was g gordon liddy.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I bet North has a man crush on Liddy.
I had a childhood friend who used to do that in Jr High. He is now a looser who lives with his mother while she pays child support to his kids.
But yeah, I get your point.
He flipped his liddy.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
and investors who flipped condos. I nver heard of dealers flipping lids. Just crazy people.
"Folks, this is not your father's Republican Party."
Joe Biden
our nation is run by an old and established order.
American Establishment — the elite few who dominate business, finance, politics, government, and the media.
Yer only sayin' that 'cause it's true!
(right on, bro :)
maybe americans against torture should picket his radio stations until he agrees
I'm serious. This would be better and more enjoyable than a week in Hawaii.
so you are now for so called torture?
It's still against the law.
Re: Keith Olbermann Offers Sean Hannity $1000 For Every Second
Fri, 04/24/2009 - 06:13 — flimflam
___________________________________________________________
No that was sarcasm
Your response was argumentum ad reductio.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
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