Hardball: Christopher Hitchens vs Ken Blackwell on the US Being a Christian Nation
From Hardball April 8, 2009. Ken Blackwell tries to make up for being clueless by not shutting up when he has no idea what he's talking about. He's so outgunned by Hitchens that this is hardly a fair fight. I'm surprised Blackwell even agreed to this debate at all.
Blackwell said he'd gladly come back and debate Hitchens again with some facts to back up his talking points. Anyone want to take odds on whether that will ever happen?
Blackwell's tactics in this segment are typical for Republicans. When someone tries to stop you from lying, get snitty and accuse them of trying to "Bogart" your time if they interrupt you, as he did here. Then talk and talk to run out the clock in these ridiculous debate boxes the MSM thinks passes for some sort of "balance". Once you've run out as much of the time for the segment as you can get away with, the other person has thirty seconds to try to debunk the last few minutes of B.S. you just spewed. Which of course they can't do. And then...oh so sorry we're out of time from the host. Come back later and we'll do it again.
the man with the Facts. I see when one of these reglious nuts come up aganist a smart guy with facts all they can do is try to bullshit. I see that asshole who fucked over the US for 8 years and used god as his reason for wars just walked away from the disaster he left us in. Went out and dunped his "RANCH" and bought a 2.1 million dollar house With srevants. he claimed to be a so called christan! what a fucken JOKE!!!!! I do not have any issues with some people who want to belive in this god shit, as long as they just do that. When they come to my home trying to get me to belive in there shit, this gets under my skin. I have a sign out in front that says, NO Church or god here, and IF I want to here about it, "I" will ask you. If you were not invited, go away.
But they still come to my door???? WTF, they can't read. I had some friends that were reglious. I knew what they were and they knew what I was. But, there pastor just could not handel this. I refused to go to there church, would not go along with there brainwashing. In the end he told the people we hung with, it is either the church or them. I guess they were never my friends. I wonder what jesus would do.
To you so called god freaks, who has the right god. there so many to choose from, and if your god is the real one, why do you brainwash your kids from babys to when they either go the way you want them or get a clue and run fast to get away from all the bullshit.
Christ was a supporter of free market enterprise? Wow. Forward thinking wasn't he!
I guess he's saying that moral people are Christians, immoral people are everyone else?
Blackwell know for certain that the Christian God of his chosen denomination is the correct one?
As for the Founders of America being Christian, I wonder how the African-American Blackwell feels of cursing a whole race into slavery because it was in the Bible.:
The Judeo-Christian God is for slavery Mr. Blackwell. Is this the Christian Nation you wish to live in?
Hopefully humanity will one day learn to be humane.
It is the essence of religion to live your life on moral principles.
You do not have to live on moral principles to be a moral human being. So, it's not because you do not have (the judeo-christian)-moral principles you are immoral.
I do not need to live on principles to be a moral human being. Nobody does.
entity able to define morality. Since religion does not have a monopoly on morality, it is sort of redundant. Which is why religious leaders want to portrait lack of religion to be synonym for lack of morals.
It just nothing more than the oldest marketing gimmick in human history.
I am saying that basing morality on principles (helooo constitution) IS in fact religious in itself.
That's kinda the debate for me. What is considered a secular state, is in fact, anything but. It makes assumptions that can only be made within a religious context.
Morality without a religious basis exists and is far more genuine than the artificially pious bigotry that passes for evangelical christianity in this country (just to name one). And don't get me started about the "morality" of Islam or Catholicism.
someone is picking and choosing and needs to learn relevance
o
and they were not christians,You can do other research on this but here is a start http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/...
Of course--because Kenny B. jus' LOVES Massa!
Exactly what I noticed. Blackwell didn't have anything other than Christo-Fascist rhetoric to offer up.
"Why do you think it says, In God We Trust on our money?" Because Christo-Fascists in Congress in the 1950s had our official motto, "E Pluribus Unum" (From many, One) changed to "In God We Trust."
And why does our Pledge of Allegiance say, "One nation under God"? For the same reason.
The Evangelicals have been altering American history over the past century. If you take any random quote from Jefferson or the other founding fathers on religion, you will NEVER see any preference of one religion over another. In fact, you'll find quite a disdain for organized religion, particularly Christianity.
"In God We Trust" violates the 1st amendment.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Doesn't say anything about what we can put on our money that I can find. Pretty much in very simple terms the govt. cannot legislate a "national" religion or ban one.
It does not say "respecting an establishment of a particular religion"... it says "of religion" as a whole. Therefore, the statement that we trust in God, which is clearly religious, has no place on our currency, our government buildings or anything else the government does.
The word God institutes no religion.
The concept of "God" is not a religious one?
Seriously?
"In God We Trust" implies no definition and luckily we get to choose what that means to us. Which is, somewhat, the essence of the first amendment. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
In God We Trust is no law and is evidence of the freedom of choice.
God is a deity in theistic and deistic religions and other belief systems, representing either the sole deity in monotheism, or a principal deity in polytheism.
If you dont believe in any type of "God" or higher power, then you really have nothing to worry about. Dont feel left out!
If I don't believe in any type of god, then I have much to worry about when that is rammed down my throat in school (Pledge of allegiance), on my money (In god we trust), in the courts (So help me God) and countless other governmentally affiliated institutions. It would be akin to writing "There is no God" on the currency... this would be offensive to believers and would have no place on government paper.
Keep religion in churches and in the private sphere, where it belongs and where the founders of this nation intended it.
they are both full it
"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." - Denis Diderot
He tore him up http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtub...
... and a Jewish nation, and a Wicaan nation, and a Muslim nation, and an atheistic nation, and so on.
It is also a nation where none of the above are allowed to establish their beliefs through the government.
PS: It is also a nation that threw off the Brits, so, right or wrong, Mr.
KnowitallHitchens should probably direct his views to the Queen. Just don't touch her, waterboard her, or Brazilian wax her. Any other areas of expertise, Chistopher?Corruption favors the wealthy.
is an American citizen. By choice, as it happens, and not accident of birth.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
... he escaped the horrible oppression of the United Kingdom.
Either that, or he found a place where his accent could be mistaken as a sign of intelligence.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
I think Hitchens is an American Citizen now... but regardless, he has a right to express his views in the USA.
The United States is a SECULAR nation that guarantees its people freedom of religion and freedom from religion. That's it in a nutshell.
...........is a grade "A" prick.
Don't forget he was in with the Religious Right when it came to Iraq. And he still defends Bush's actions there. Hitchens is also an opportunist. Its ok for him to rub elbows with those assholes when its convenient.
hitchens is not with the religious right any more than you are with pat robertson because (i can only assume) you agree that global warming is real and needs to be addressed. disagreeing with his harsh (and often honest) rhetoric about muslims (which, i might add, he applies the same logic to all religion) is one thing, but straw-manning him as somebody who "rubs elbows with the religious right when its convenient" is a pretty big mischaracterization.
Naw, I think its right on. He wasn't against the Religious Right 6 years ago, he was agreeing with them. Shit he was showing up on Fox News at least twice a week. Now that the Right are on the ropes he is on the other side. Face it, Religious freaks of any ilk are bad but so are puffy, alcoholic Englishmen who think they are better than everyone else while being hypocrite assholes. I'm not buying it.
This man is complete hack. As stated before, all he has is smokescreen and no facts. Hutchins took this losers apart and the little pieces fell all over the floor never to be returned to their original spot.
Sometimes it's actually hard to watch these fools who believe they have all the answers to all the questions ever asked in the universe get their collective asses handed to them in public so easily it's hard to imagine the folks that actually believe in these clowns being able to carry on a rational conversation in a group larger than 1 person.
Fools come along everyday by the thousands but those that represent the group known as "Moronous Gigantis" are quickly catching up in terms of followers....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTL8eUvQGFE&fe...
This man says everything what this republican is saying but he's An Indian-European intellectual. 30 years of research ...
the Indian-European intellectual is talking crap but he's been doing it longer.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
How can they possibly debate their position if you don't first allow that their irrational and imaginary precepts are taken as facts?
If you aren't going to let the one side make things up as they go, the internets are going to be a pretty dull place.
Now about that part with Jesus leading the his army of unicorn mounted angels shooting arrows from their harps, how did that end?
Thanks for the links. It seems he is a really smart guy. I found these links to a conference he hosted in India. It seems he has done a lot of research into religions.
S.N. Balagangadhara
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSfNyGSiRck
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Agtihm1GiA8&fe...
Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJta7DfDuFs&fe...
Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmClD-4l4j8&fe...
Part 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDivLvRqTD4&fe...
Vergelijkende Cultuurwetenschap (“Comparative Science of Cultures”)
http://www.cultuurwetenschap.be/index.php?pag...
IN CONVERSATION
In search of new idioms
http://www.hindu.com/mag/2007/12/09/stories/2...
Wiki Entry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._N._Balagangad...
should go back to saying who wears the worst dress. oh, wait. :)
I hate both of these buffoons and Bush ass lickers and certainly don't agree with anything they have to say. That fucking pilgrim heritage is why this nation is so fucked up to begin with. Hitchens is a moron who tries to hide it with his obscure words only Brits use and rarely. Maybe he should try combing his hair sometimes and brushing his teeth.
Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity. Albert Einstein
I don't think I could have summed up my response to these tools any better. Bravo!
Nailed it.
All those years as an alcoholic seem that have taken a severe toll on both his liver (he looks like sh*t) and his brain (he sounds like a complete jackass).
To be honest Hitchens is nothing but an opportunistic hack. He was for Bush before he was against him, only when it became expedite for him to do so. He can pretend all he wants, but his stripes as a parasite conservative are always showing....
Hitchens can be a schmuck sometimes, but when it comes to debunking the "America is a Christian Nation" bullshit, he's right on. One other thing: it's assholes like Blackwell who make me so glad I became a Unitarian Universalist.
If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders.
George Carlin
baby jesus is a free thinking World Citizen
..it is who I am: a Democrat and a Christian.
But my wife, also a Christian, and I argue often about the "Christian Nation" tag.
I contend that:
1) If the Founding Fathers (a strange collection to call Christians) wanted this to be a "Christian Nation" they would have made the Constitution say so explicitely. They were not idiots (nor were they prescient re: gun laws).
2) Since being a Christian is an individual acceptance of Jesus Christ as saviour, only individuals can be Christians, not a Nation/State.
I hate that the racist, stupid and hate-filled have so controlled the message that passes as Christian in America today. The politicians and MegaChurch Capitalists have led too many to see the loving God I worship as venal, petty and small.
He is not. And most Christians do not want to be these things, either.
Please don't judge all of us by the nature of those with the loudest voices.
What God offers is real and good.
Not Republican.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Thanks DC
hope to see you at the table
You and I are on the same page, brother.
Hope you have a safe and Happy Easter.
He has risen.
If the US is a "Christian" nation, why are there sooooo many people in this nation who do NOT act in a manner that reflects a healthy respect for the teachings of "Christ"?!?!
Most of the "christians" I've met are rigid, judgmental, puerile, hatemongering hypocrites. Oh, and let me not forget proselytizing, which serves primarily to insure a compliant and brainwashed mass of "faithful" followers.
Bleh. We humans are mired in our adolescence on a macro level. Our collective guilt compels us to seek solace in various religions that are both mythological and limited. I doubt sincerely that I'll live to see us get our collective heads out of our collective asses.
Why on earth do you think that this ignorant Brit supposedly has the upper hand in this debate.
It is clear to me you haven't the first clue what current religious theory has produced.
Please check out the work of S.N. Balagangadhara if you are able to understand it and then make the claim again how "secular" all of American fouding priciples are. Simply an ignorant but understandable statement for someone not close to religious study.
There are serious studies done on the extent of Judeo-Christian influence on Western society and the results all speak in favour of Blackwell.
And please, don't think of me as some republican defender. I am from Belgium and couldn't hate the republican party and all it stands for no more then you guys could. But in this debate the Brit simply has no clue what he is talking about, not the republican.
HISTORY teaches you that all of the principles on which Western society are founded have their origin in JUDEO-CHRISTIAN THEOLOGICAL DEBATES! That is one thing which cannot possibly be denied.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTL8eUvQGFE&fe...
See from 1.30 mark
YOUR history may say so, but I can provide equally valid historical context that says that most of our Founding Fathers were deists at best (Benjamin Franklin was openly atheistic) and that our country was formed on the democratic principles set forth in ancient Greece.
Religious theory does not equal history.
I would strongly suggest that next time you open your mouth (metaphorically) to show how much you know about American history that you watch the attitude in front of those of us who have actually studied it.
"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."
"Lighthouses are more helpful then churches."
And John Adams sez:
"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."
Yeah, a bunch of religious Christian freaks all those founding fathers were, eh?
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government."
"I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another."
"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man."
push for this to be a "Christian" nation, eh? :-)
.
You have to agree with him on that point.
Well, it's a start. See if he can build it from there.
post was meant for below.
Just so, Nicole.
I noticed long ago (depending on the situation--i.e, pol. chat, rel. debate)it's almost always the alledged Christian who ends up hostile and angry.
calling me Christian?
The question of whether the U.S. is a Christian nation can be answered simply: No. All of Hitchens' points are all valid. The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation. The Founding Fathers specifically created special protections for all religions and specifically avoided even the mention of the word "God" in the Constitution.
If your point is that some principles of Christianity WERE THE FOUNDATIONS of some of the laws and some of the traditions of the U.S., then you have a point.
Although I would argue that the principles of Christianity are based on prior religions. Jesus is even a recurring character for many of thousands of years before the Gospels were written. And certainly the principles we live by were shaped my MANY religions and prior civilizations, including the Greeks, the Romans, etc., etc.
You'd never claim that the U.S. is an Italian nation because many of us eat spaghetti and noodles were invented by Italians.
Your point is valid, but unfortunately the example you give for comparison isn't. The CHINESE invented noodles, and the idea was introduced to the Italians by Marco Polo on his return from faraway Cathay.
"In theory theory and practice are alike. In practice they are very different."
Of course, I'm assuming that you're referring to the sort of religious/moral principles that we see in the 10 Commandments, the teachings of Jesus, that sort of thing.
Because, see, almost every religious belief system teaches the same sort of thing. Including many belief systems that predate Judaism, and most certainly predate Christianity (which just ripped off the parts of Judaism that the church founders felt were useful).
So, it would be as meaningful to say that the principles on which Western societies are founded have their origin in ancient Egyptian religions.
Aside from a lot of dead trees for pulp nothing but arid speculation.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
but i argue that you have not read the theory S.N. Balagangadhara has produced.
More scientific then most psychology and most any other social science.
It MOST CERTAINLY CAN be denied (see, I can write in all caps toooo!)
What you describe as Judeo-Christian principles can very easily be traced back to the Graeco-Roman philosophical debates, the Judean world had no influence on the Greek philosopher, but Judea was heavily influenced by the Greeks, that's historical fact. The NT was written in a world that was very heavily influenced by the Hellenistic world, especially Neopythagoreanism was very popular in that period. In fact, Jesus wasn't the only wandering neopythagoreanist philosopher doing all kinds of magic tricks. Apollonius of Tyana and Jesus were just two of the many in that time period.
I completely understand why many people make no real distinction between Christianity before or after. History is never a clear straight line which goes in phases that begin at precise times. I am all for the theory of evolution.
But that is not what Christianity claimed for centuries... And they were very powerful and dominated society in every possible way for a long time. So don't take a few philosophical debates that took place before Christianity on the same subject (say, truth) as the same philosophical debates that took place within Christianity. The framework in which we use the notions we accept today about human nature and society is very different from the Greeks. Yes, they indeed introduced philosophical debates in Contintal Europe (btw, Indian history also had huge philosophical knowledge LOOOONG before the greeks.) But Christian theology, which was considered science for a long time, put those debates in an entirely different context.
You still don't understand, don't you?
Christianity wasn't something alien to the world that fell out of the blue sky on some judean land: christianity was a school of thought that expanded on and was firmly rooted in earlier greek and hellenistic thinking and stood firmly in that tradition. The Renaissance, but more importantly the Enlightnment, caused a clear break with christian thinking about how societies should be formed and the role people played in that society. Christian thought had put forward divinity and its representatives in the church as authorities on how people should live. The Enlightenment put Man and Ratio back, harking back to Graeco-Roman philosophy.
Especially considering thinking about how people should live together, how societies are formed and maintained, the relationship between government and its citizens (in other words, the founding principles upon which societies are based), it is clear that the Greek and Hellenistic thinkers, living in city-states, had far more influence on our modern societies than nomadic judeans.
Nope, totally wrong. There are only two thinkers from the entire Christian shool of thinking who are nowadays taught as having influenced modern western thinking: Augustine and Thomas of Aquinas. Especially Augustine - a Neo-Platonist - knew a lot and commented a lot on Greek philosophy. But even their influence on modern western thinking of the last three centuries PALES in comparison with Greek thinkers: Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, Pythagoras, Neopythagoreans (to which the early christians clearly belonged).
to S.N. Balagangadhara's "heathen in his blindness"
you can read it online.
If you take the debate seriously take it up with that book. Time nor place to attempt this debate in full. Please read it. If you can find the time. If you don't agree, i'm sure you'll find it at least interesting and thouroughly researched.
http://colonial.consciousness.googlepages.com...
"amoung contemporary humanists, the Greek faith that truth makes us free has been fused with one of Christianity's most dubious legacies - the belief that the hope of freedom belongs to everyone"
This country was founded according to philosophical and political principles of the French Enlightenment. It's fun to see right wing nuts heads' explode when you tell them that our ideals come from FRANCE!!!! EEEEK!
Dorinda Outram provides a good, intellectual definition of the Enlightenment:
“Enlightenment was a desire for human affairs to be guided by rationality rather than by faith, supersition, or revelation; a belief in the power of human reason to change society and liberate the individual from the restraints of custom or arbitrary authority; all backed up by a world view increasingly validated by science rather than by religion or tradition.”
Christian nation, my ass.
Good or bad. However, history is written by the winners who employ liars to tell the stories.
(Case in point... the reshaping of the Bush administration by FOX News).
We're better off reading a variety of opinions and sources to formulate a thought or an idea than just taking one book by one author and claiming it to be the be-all and end-all for any debate. (Yes, we can include the Bible in later category.)
That Brit, is one of the more brilliant minds out there ... when he's sober. Can someone please dry him out before he goes on television?
"When are we going to stop trying to tell elected officials what to do. Our job is to spend the taxpayers' money the best way we can." -- Tommy Watkins, Justice of the Peace, Crawford County, Arkansas
Misterrao
Western society got it's start there, that would be true. What is being argued, is the start of this country's government, which was started upon debates regarding Enlightenment principles. Please read Voltaire, Locke, Hume, and see if you don't recognize the principles and rights enumerated in the Constitution. BTW our rights are unalienable by nature. Not by some god.
The meetings of the Philadelphia Convention which hammered out the Constitution were closed to the public since the members wanted to develop a government free of religious sentiment and monarchic values.
Look, this is a very extensive debate. It is impossible for me to cram in a few sentences here what "Heathen in his blindness" takes a couple of hundred pages to do.
But he treats all arguments that are being put forth here very extensivly and if you have read them yourself you will appreciate the work put in the book. So before you trash it, try giving it a shot. If there is one thing you cannot say, is that he didn't properly do his research. You can disagree as much as you want, would be more helpful to give counterarguments to what he says, rather then just trash his persona, saying he just 'hasn't really done the research'. If you say that to a person reading his book you will look like a fool.
That the principles of the Enlightenment were used by the Founding Fathers. I am not denying historical fact. What is being said is that the Enlightenment used Christian-Judean concepts about what humans beings are, without seeing them as Christian-Judean concepts but self-evindent truths.
Replacing "god" with "nature" and thinking that you have secularized the concept is exactly the point I am trying to make so thanks for illustrating.
nice assessment, Heather.
I'm not that familiar with Hitchens or the other poor misguided little man. But this was a joust that could go on SNL.. sadly. I agree Hitchens has a sharp wit and straight-edge fact-based delivery which I always like. When the pilgrims came into the exchange, that was hilarious. I'll leave it at that.
The issue of the US being founded as a Christian Nation can be settled quite easily. In 1797, the Senate, being made up largely of people who either were Founding Fathers or who probably knew them quite well voted unanimously on a treaty which mentions the very subject at hand. The vote was on a treaty with the subjects of Tripoli and Barbary. It should be noted that this vote is one of only three unanimous votes in Senate history and the treaty contained the following language:
"[T]he Government of the United States...is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion[.]"
I think that pretty much makes it case closed.
From here: http://machineslikeus.com/articles/IsTheUS.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTL8eUvQGFE&fe...
Notion of active and passive rights comes straight from a discussion within the catholic church, long before John Locke. So in a way, christian anthropology is living on in the modern day world and is actually spreading. Seeing as how dominated by this concept modern society is.
is based on Judeo-Christian principles?
Why stop there...Christianity itself is an amalgam of Judaism, Zoroastrianism and various Pagan rituals...can we say that the US is based on Zoroaster priciples too?
How about "The US is a PAGAN nation"?
The principles upon which this country was founded was decidedly removed from a notion of a state religion. If you're arguing morals, I will argue that morals do not equal religion and you're still missing the forest for the trees.
the Roman empire, which had provisions... and definitively employed the concepts of passive and active rights in Roman Law. Which was also derived from other Mediterranean traditions, which predate that "conversation" a good many centuries.
So what is your point exactly?
Keep up the good work at ZH! ;)
My point is basically that even tho it might seem that religion is no longer present in society under the guise of secularism. The basic concepts used in Western society about what human beings are and how they function in society are based on religious dogma (free will, intentional creature etc...) Doesn't matter if they realize it or not. Doesn't make it any more or less so.
But for extended debate I refer you to http://www.balagangadhara.org/
because you are not the first to bring the Roman empire into the debate. He has a few chapters on it in his book...
trashed what you are saying, don't you?
Or reading and comprehension ain't your forte?
How do traditions become notions?
That is the process where the church came in. Before it was just practice, not based on any overarching principles. What the church did was put it in a framework. The incorporated their view on human nature an society to explain the traditions...
Wow. You obviously have never studied any Greek Philosophy. Plato, Pythagoras, Diogenes, Aristotle, Socrates didn't have overarching principles?
There is NO debate that there is clear unbroken line in thinking about morality from ancient Greek and Hellenistic philosophers, via medieval Muslim philosophers, to the European Renaissance and Enlightenment. And that it was the Enlightenment that influenced the Founding Fathers.
in the way Christian theology has. They did not have all those supposed psychological understandings of the human being in the way Christianity proposes. Those views became so dominant gradually they become self-evident.
So the claim is that most contemporary psychological , political and philosophical debates make assumptions first made in the debates within Christian theology.
"The bequest of Socrates was to tether the pursuit of truth to a mystical ideal of the good. Yet neither Socrates nor any other ancient thinker imagined that truth could make mankind free. They took for granted that freedom would always remain the privilege of a few; there was no hope for the species. By contrast, among contemporary humanists, the Greek faith that truth makes us free has been fused with one of Christianity's most dubious legacies - the belief that the hope of freedom belongs to everyone."
John Gray.
find most of those concepts predate Christianity. Zoroastrianism anyone?
Hasa Diga Eebowai
The Treaty of Tripoli pretty much lays everything down in stone.
Dear god, could they have found a worse spokesman for Christianity than this nearly incoherent Ken Blackwell? I detest Hitchens with a passion, but this time I am 10000% on his side.
Blackwell kept running on and on, and then he dared to accuse Hitchens of "bogarting" his time?!
Hitchens brought the facts, but more than that, he brought basic COMMON SENSE. Blackwell came across as a complete idiot without the slightest clue about anything. Hitchens, on the other hand, managed to keep his cool even when being interrupted and cut off.
This video is a perfect example of why it's pointless to try to reason with modern "Christians" in America. They generally show the lack of awareness and the dim intellect of Blackwell. (True, there are Christians who are smart, good people...but I think they've mostly left America.)
Even though I strongly disagree with his take on the war in Iraq, I still love watching him tear new assholes on people who don't know what they're talking about.
Love him or hate him, you'd better have your facts straight when you debate Hitchens!
Regardless of my previous statement, the argument that because many of the Founding Fathers were Christian and therefor our Nation is Christian is absurd. Is football a "Christian Sport" because a lot of the founders of the NFL went to Church? Is McDonald's a "Christian Restaurant" because the founders were Christian? Supposing that the creators of any organization being Christian therefor makes the organization Christian (so long as it's not something like a Christian Charity) is ridiculous. If the founders of NAMBLA went to church would that make NAMBLA religious?
There is a difference with saying "America is a Christian Nation" and saying, "the founding priciples of Western society come from discussions and assumptions which are clearly traced back to the bible." The latter was basically the claim of Mr Blackwell
To extend that, living, individually or in society, on principles ITSELF is a religious phenomenon.
The Bible is a regurgitation of even older societies and/or beliefs. Blackwell was merely rambling and saying, "You and I both know..."
just as easily and with considerably more justification say western civilization derives from Hellenism. The philosophical debates you cite occurred long before Christianity.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
Just a quick note: I really like Hitchens, whenever he's talking about something that ISN'T religion. His claim that Benjamin Franklin was an atheist is absurd.
Of course, there is an argument that, raised Quaker, he was more of an agnostic:
one of my favorite debating strategies to lead by questions and expose the underlying contradiction. A very apt quote Nicole.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
Sounds like me and Franklin could've hung out together.
He'd supply the mademoiselles.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
of course franklin was religous , he was screwing anything in paris that wore pantaloons as if he were a baptist preacher!
If I can go to Paris in my seventies and still court Mademoiselles two and three at a time, I'll thank whatever God(s) I can think of.
You gotta love Ben: "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
Corruption favors the wealthy.
well like they say , old woods the hardest!
Hitchens seems, like all fanatical atheists, to be very insecure in relation to religion. His identity, his very ego needs that the Founding Fathers be absolutely atheistic, that religion is the source of all evil (and it perplexes me that someone who has studied Marxism so much usually ignores the materialistical triggers of modern religious wars in the Middle East), etc, etc...
He only seems smart when he discusses religion (and he IS a smart man, whom I admire very much) because his opponents normally belong to the Troglodyte Deep America Evangelical Brigade.
"His identity, his very ego needs that the Founding Fathers be absolutely atheistic"
And your ego needs what, constant stroking that confirmed deists, agnostics and atheists (i.e. some of the founding fathers) who founded this country were something they were not?
the truth is most people will sell you out for one reason or another ,religion , some one else more importent, someone with money , you name it! dont agree with the majority of anything shut them out , call them names ,its a bullshit world folks get used to it! the only thing worth a crap is a real friend and believe me thier are dam few of thoes, and ive learned the hard way the internets the last place youll find a true friend!
Who cares about religion anymore as long as they do not try and push their ideas on the country then be what you wanna be
It's too late for that.
Hitchens would have probably throw a pitcher of beer in Blackwell's face had he not finished it off just before the segment.
he's a fucking repuglyKKKan. That's all.
Some stuff you can't make up!
KKK reference in regards to a black man?
There never seems to be a den of lions around when you need one.
baby jesus would love to consume an adult beverage with Hitchens
You can do other research on this but you can start here http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/...
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Once you've run out as much of the time for the segment as you can get away with, the other person has thirty seconds to try to debunk the last few minutes of B.S. you just spewed. Which of course they can't do. And then...oh so sorry we're out of time from the host.
That's one of Michael Medved's favorite tactics, which is why I avoid him like the plague.
...that Hitchens never pointed out that Blackwell himself was admitting that this is not a "Christian" nation. Even if it were true that the moral foundation of this country is Judeo-Christian, that means calling the US a Christian nation has to be wrong. Otherwise, it would be equally fair to call is a Jewish nation.
Personally, I would go much further and agree with Hitchens that neither the Declaration of Independence nor the Constitution are in any way Christian documents whose purpose is to establish a Christian nation. To me that means this is most certainly not, and never has been, a Christian nation.
Blackwell, who is obviously a profoundly stupid person, doesn't realize that his own argument precludes him from accurately referring to the US as Christian. The idea that any electorate was ever dumb enough to elect Blackwell to any political office is deeply disturbing.
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I can prove that America IS NOT a Christian Nation...
... Where are the Christians concerning war, TORTURE, lies?
S I L E N T!
(well, most, anyway)
IF this were a Christian Nation, it would be a pacifist Nation for Christ never, EVER rose to strike another human being. In fact, He argued to the people, to NOT throw stones and to NOT judge others.
Would a Christian Nation seek out reasons to kill, murder, lie, rape, pillage, condemn...
... I THINK NOT! Yet, America does.
.
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Save the World.
Modern Christianity in America is rarely moral and rarely in sync with Jesus of Nazareth's philosophies. For many, it's just a tribal brand to support their ignorance, bigotry and hate by creating a sense of "mob righteousness" that defies all logic and true morality.
Just how this heathen sees it.
"IF this were a Christian Nation, it would be a pacifist Nation for Christ never, EVER rose to strike another human being."
King James Bible:
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Amended" It's all about whose religious "COOL-AIDE" stand is bigger!
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Textbook example of a filibustering asshole of a republican who doesn't know shit from shinola, otherwise his shoes would shiny instead of shitty smelling.
Babbling nitwit. Sheesh.
I'm just superstitious enough to hedge my bets.
"but we always come back." Just like acid reflux disease, Mr. Blackwell. Just like mildew.
I say we're a tai chi nation, and I'm willing to debate it on Hardball and will do just as good a job of it as Blackwell did for Christianity I'll betcha!
Why is it that Christians like BLackwell are so full of crap? You would think that if Christianity was so all powerful and great that it would be obvious because when these people spoke there would be understanding and meaning ... but instead insanity spills out of their mouths, their eyes glaze over, their head begin to spin, and they become angry and start lying.
Maybe evil has infected the world so badly by now that weak minded Christians now all harbor demons from hell. For example Bush and Cheney are very clearly demons on earth ... you can see it when you watch them carefully. Their crimes are so vile that their souls have already gone to the deepest levels of hell while their bodies finish their time on earth.
I could believe Blackwell is a demon before I could believe he is good. After all ... he's a Republican.
Science has influenced American life far more than Christianity over the last 30 years.
I guess god's just been on vacation...
Our nation was founded as a secular government, based on the authority of "We, the People," not a god, king, or dictator.
Nowhere in the bible will you find an acknowledgment that human beings have inherent rights to life, liberty, happiness, dignity, fairness, or self-government. In the bible, humans are sinners, worms, and slaves--God has all the rights.
Study the symptoms not the virus...
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." (Proverbs 14:12) "Lean not unto thine own understanding." (Proverbs 3:5) "Bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." (II Corinthians 10:5) "Captivity" is not freedom. The U.S. Declaration of Independence is a humanistic, anti-biblical document.
Study the symptoms not the virus...
"Darwin showed that humans are like other animals, humanists claim they are not. Humanists insist that by using our knowledge we can control our environment and flourish as never before. In affirming this, they renew one of Christianity's most dubious promises - that salvation is open to all. The humanist belief in progress is only a secular version of this Christian faith.
In the world shown to us by Darwin, there is nothing that can be called progress. To anyone reared on humanist hopes this is intolerable. As a result, Darwin's teaching has been stood on its head and Christianity's cardinal error - that humans are different from all other animals - has been given a new lease on life."
John Gray - "Straw Dogs"
Sorry, but that might be the most nonsensical thing I've read in the last year or so. The first sentence is a falsehood (both clauses) and the rest of his drivel is hung on that sentence. Classic rhetorical hucksterism. Start with a flawed premise and build a huge pile of manure on top of it... kind of like religion.
That is the most shallow interpretation of Darwin's thoughts, and of humanists for that matter.
*
Study the symptoms not the virus...
"Pantheists are basically humanists who like flowers rather than math."
[David Tango]
Study the symptoms not the virus...
He is a laughingstock here in Ohio. He has no idea what he is talking about.
Blackwell is the sort of guy who drove me from the Republican party - anti-intellectual, disingenuous, transparent. I am from Ohio too - and yes, he is a laughing stock. I wanted to wipe that idiotic grin off his face...
I gotta say Mike Barnicle impressed me yesterday with his ability to host a debate show. He got out of the way and let the guests debate amongst themselves without popping in all the time like Chris Matthews does. When things start getting nasty he steps in and clams things down then lets them go back at it. This is what a real host should do. Good job mike!
It always happens. Once you start debating any religious person at all about religion it usually takes about 10 seconds before they start stubbling over their words and can't debate their points. It just goes to show you how much religion is made up of magic and BS.
It is hard to debate something that is made up and there is absolutely no proof that it exists.
Religion is the biggest snake oil and scourge on the planet and in the history of mankind.
3500 years old, 66 books of the Bible, all that martyr's blood spilled so this dipshit can face off against Hitchins & all he has to offer are bumper stickers & t shirt slogans,... deplorable. Somewhere out there CS Lewis is weeping,...
I'm hoping that one of the things that happens when it all falls down is this mindless religious country club dies & stays dead. Let's see how well a prosperity doctrine holds up during a new depression.
The Founding Fathers based the principles of our government on the principles of the Enlightenment.
When the Greek and Roman philosophers were rediscovered, European philosophers sent in motion an alternative to the nearly Medieval xtian principles still in use.
Diderot, Hume, Locke, Voltaire, etal., developed a religion free discourse concerning governance, economic interaction, and private rights and behaviors from which our Founding Fathers write the Declaration and the Constitution.
Religion had nothing to do with it. Not anybody's religion. The developers of the Constitution very deliberately left out any reference to the supernatural, let alone the god of the bible.
The youtube character is just another long-winded godbag trying to inject his wishful thinking into a subject he hasn't truly researched.
Nice post.
I am looking for a good analysis of John Locke book:
Two Treatises of Government
If you know of any :)
The truth does not matter with religious people. They have no problem re-writing history. They do it all the time.
Unfortunately the rest of us may have to suffer.
Our kids may have to hear about creationism and other BS.
On the positive side is that these white evangelicals will be marginalized over time, as the population grows and becomes more diverse.
On the negative if the country continues to dilute its science then countries like China will pass us by....
George Washington was president of his local Free Mason chapter
Are we a nation of Free Masons?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
That would be a vastly more supportable statement than "we are a Christian nation". Many of the founding fathers and signers of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution were masons.
It would be circular, as a big part of the Free Mason doctrine is based on Christianity....
With a splash & Hitchen's is ready!
This guy Blackwell was a joke...far too stupid to be debating Hitchens on this subject.
Here's a much better debate...however, the debate will never be an equal one as Christianity is so easy to dismiss....still, this is a gallant effort:
http://fora.tv/2007/10/11/Christopher_Hitchen...
What I want to know is...When is MSNBC gonna tell Pat to "Shut up" AND "Sit Down" I will never understand why any responsible network would want his opinion on anything. But of course, the networks are only "Responsible" for muddying the waters and generating as much revenue as possible. With as little truth or reporting as possible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gQyU1HCclo
Reality has a liberal bias
More proof that these FAKE preaching, Right Wing-NutO's, don't have a clue or any truth in what the hell they are talking about, except we know they peddle intolerance and hatred.
It's fun watching Blackwell getting beaten to a pulp by Christopher Hitchens on a national television debate about Christianity in America. (from the Economist mag)
The religious right is losing ground because people are better educated than they used to be, and also have access to more information, thus hear arguments based on reason, rather than fear of the unknown – the greatest selling point of all religions – “trust us – we have all the answers…?
Plenty of people are born into religions, but Atheism is the fastest growing creed, by adoption. In the UK, where politicians “don’t do Religion”. there is a movement to de-baptise people. After all. someone made a decision for you before you could think, after pondering the consequences, one should be allowed to back out of religion..
Where oh where, is a politician like Barry Goldwater who famously said,
“I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C" and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me?... And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of ‘conservatism.”
When I was watching the debates on YouTube, and some “Born-Again” asked how much the “Holy-Bible” affected their daily lives, I wondered why non of the presidential candidate had the balls to say:
“My beliefs are a personal matter between me and my God, whoever he/she/it may be. As such, they should have no bearing on your choice of me as a candidate or not, since my job as president would be to listen to and represent all Americans, whatever their beliefs may be. You should judge me on my behaviour, qualifications and whether you think I would be a good President. Just as I have no right to impose my beliefs on you, you have no right to question mine. In addition, our constitution protects and allows freedom of belief for all our people, which is one of the many freedoms that make the United States of America one of the greatest countries on Earth, and me proud to be an American. Next relevant question, please..."
Personally, I can respect people for making a choice because they believe that God created mankind. But they can't respect me for making my observation that mankind created God. I will let them hold the beliefs that I fundamentally disagree with for the very same reason why I let people tell me bananas are wonderful.
The religious right, along with their spokesmen, Rick Warner, Joel Osteen and pseudo TV pundits such as O’Reilly (the master of hypocrisy) and “talk-radio hosts such as Rush Limbaugh and the deeply unsubtle Sean Hannity" profess to represent “real American values”. The best news is that they are preaching to a shrinking constituency of inward looking intolerant deeply religious bigots.
In fact, a bit like the Pilgrim Fathers, who left Britain to “escape” religious persecution. What jingoistic historians cleverly neglect to mention, was that the persecution they left behind, was the ability conduct Witch burning, stacking and drowning…
Welcome to the new world…
The religious right has the same self-righteous approach to life.
The slip into political joke status of America's religious right has been stunning and a joy to watch.
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