AC360: Dan Savage Takes On Tony Perkins Over Prop 8
From AC360 Nov. 12, 2008: Anderson Cooper brings on Dan Savage and Tony Perkins to debate Proposition 8 and the protests against it. Savage makes Perkins look like the hapless James Dobson mouthpiece he is.
I'm sorry. This is all about civil liberties in my book. It's all about freedom, something the right-wingers trumpet to the media whenever it suits them. Why are they so afraid of gay marriage?
DAN SAVAGE: Part of the democratic process is if you're going to throw a punch you're going to have a punch thrown back. You don't get to march in the public square, slime people, malign people and demagogue against people and then jump behind a bush and say, no God we're a church. You can't criticize us. You can't bring it back to our frond doors and say we have a problem with what you've been saying about us in public and doing to us in the public square.
The Mormon Church has politicized itself with this movement and -- in California to ban same-sex marriage. And it wasn't just the Mormon Church encouraged its followers. The first prophet of the Mormon Church had a letter read from every temple, every Mormon temple in the land instructing its members as a religious duty to donate time and money to this campaign. You cannot campaign against the vulnerable minority group in this country in the political arena without expecting some sort of response
Full transcript from CNN below:
DAN SAVAGE, AUTHOR, "THE COMMITMENT": Part of the democratic process is if you're going to throw a punch you're going to have a punch thrown back. You don't get to march in the public square, slime people, malign people and demagogue against people and then jump behind a bush and say, no God we're a church. You can't criticize us. You can't bring it back to our front doors and say we have a problem with what you've been saying about us in public and doing to us in the public square.
The Mormon Church has politicized itself with this movement and -- in California to ban same-sex marriage. And it wasn't just the Mormon Church encouraged its followers. The first prophet of the Mormon Church had a letter read from every temple, every Mormon temple in the land instructing its members as a religious duty to donate time and money to this campaign. You cannot campaign against the vulnerable minority group in this country in the political arena without expecting some sort of response.
COOPER: Tony, is what the church did appropriate? And I know you've been critical of the demonstrations. Is it inappropriate for demonstrators you think to focus on the Mormon Church?
TONY PERKINS, PRESIDENT FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Well, I mean, you can also focus on the African-American churches, where African- Americans voted over 70 percent of them voted for the marriage amendment in California.
This really underscores what many people were saying that this advancement of same-sex marriage was going to bring about this confrontation with religious liberties. And it's very frightening when you begin to see --
SAVAGE: There is no confrontation with religious liberties.
PERKINS: -- these demonstrations of Violating the spaces of the church and going in and disrupting their services.
SAVAGE: That hasn't happened.
PERKINS: Yes, it has happened. They've been spray painting churches, vandalizing churches.
COOPER: Tony, the tens of thousands of people demonstrated so far most have been extremely peaceful. There may have been a few incidences here and there. But I don't think it is accurate to say there has been a large scale of invasion of churches.
SAVAGE: Gay bars have been fire bombed.
(CROSSTALK)
PERKINS: It's just like this; Dan will not allow people to speak. There was a full debate on this. In fact Dan's side raised more money and it came from special interest groups or wealthy individuals like Tim Gill who put in the money and they had this full discussion about this in California. In fact, they've had it twice now. I don't understand --
SAVAGE: They had it twice now and in 2000 your side won by 20 to 30 points. This time you won by four points. You guys are losing this war against religious freedom. There are religions in this country that will marry gay and lesbian couples. What about their religious freedom?
PERKINS: Look, the courts have stepped in -- you've gone to the courts, the courts overthrew the vote of over four million people from 2000. They gathered over a million signatures.
SAVAGE: Which is part of what courts in our system supposed to do; the constitution exists to protect minorities against the tyranny of the majority.
(CROSSTALK)
PERKINS: No. You don't understand the rule of law that, if you want to change the law, instead of using the courts to redefine marriage.
SAVAGE: So Loving v. Virginia when the courts declared interracial marriage to be a constitutional right in the teeth of popular support which was against interracial marriage at the time.
(CROSSTALK)
PERKINS: Dan, you know that is a red herring. That is absolutely a red herring.
SAVAGE: It is not a red herring. You were talking about the function of the courts.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: No one can hear either of you talk. Dan, finish your thought and will have Tony respond.
SAVAGE: Well, Tony is saying that the courts have no right to overrule the will of the people. That's what the courts exist for. That is what the constitution exists for. That's what the bill of rights is there for; to carve out from the tyranny of the majority.
COOPER: Tony, should the civil rights of individuals be left up to the majority to decide?
PERKINS: No one has unrestrained liberties in this country to marry whomever they want. Someone can't marry a close blood relative or an underage person. There are restrictions upheld in almost every civilization for millennia.
SAVAGE: For millennia it was legal for men to beat their wives.
PERKINS: Dan, would you let somebody else speak.
COOPER: Tony, you've got to finish your thought because I want to ask one other question. Tony, finish your though.
PERKINS: Look, this is about redefining marriage. It is not about what -- you try to compare this to interracial marriage. It is not the same thing. There were extra provisions put that would prohibit people that were man and woman to marry.
This is redefining marriage. This is a total different issue. The people of California have spoken. In fact, every time this has gone on to the ballot and people have had a chance to vote --
COOPER: There is a huge generational divide. In the results of Proposition 8, basically older Americans voted --
SAVAGE: The Mormon Church bankrolled this and shoved it through. The protest could also, I guess, be at old folks homes because older people voted more. This is bigotry. This kind of homophobia and racism is part and parcel of older vote.
PERKINS: Why don't you take to the African-American community. Take that to the Hispanic community.
COOPER: Do you feel that over time within a very short amount of time this issue, I mean each time this is getting closer and closer. Do you think the history and Barack Obama's part in it is in your favor?
(CROSSTALK)
SAVAGE: You know who redefined marriage? Straight people redefined. Marriage used to be one man acquiring the property of another man, a daughter that became a wife. Straight people redefined marriage to be two individuals who commit to each other because of a bond of love. There can be children or no children, it could be a monogamous sexual relationship or not a monogamous sexual relationship. There can be a sexual relationship or not a sexual relationship. That's what marriage means now in our culture and they want to define it back to the patriarchal sexist institution it was.
PERKINS: Come on, man. You know that is not true.
COOPER: Tony, it does seem that young people though view this issue very differently than you do. Do you worry at all that you are just on the wrong side of history?
PERKINS: No. No, not at all. Anderson, what we're seeing actually among young people is they understand more than anybody what happens when you redefine marriage. Especially when you see young people who have grown up --
COOPER: The young people under-whelmingly voted against Proposition 8.
PERKINS: No.
SAVAGE: Yes, they did.
PERKINS: You are still saying -- it is not a majority.
SAVAGE: Yes. It is a majority. A majority of the young people voted against Prop 8.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: I want Tony to answer the question and then I give you both a final thought. Tony.
PERKINS: Well, you can't get a word head wise.
SAVAGE: When you strip me of my rights when I interrupt you, who is really suffering here?
PERKINS: Look, the policy this country has adopted in the last 40 years which has minimized the importance of marriage; there is an understanding the purpose of public policy is to achieve a greater good. It's not designed to shape out narrow anomalies. It is for a broader reality.
The reality is that kids need a mom and a dad. That is what marriage is about. It is not about two moms, two dads, three dads, three moms. It is about a mom and a dad. And that's what public policy should promote
COOPER: Dan, your turn.
SAVAGE: That is not what marriage is about. People without children can get married. Marriage is not defined by the presence of children.
PERKINS: They can but that is not the purpose of government being involved regulating marriage.
SAVAGE: Individual liberties is the purpose of our constitution. For you to write individual liberties out of our political system --
PERKINS: Then you must be for polygamy. You must be for every other form of relationship.
SAVAGE: We can debate on marriage one at a time.
COOPER: We're going to have to leave it there. Tony you're your thoughts. And then Dan, your final thoughts.
SAVAGE: I hope Tony Perkins doesn't pray to Jesus with that mouth because he bears false witness against his gay and lesbian neighbors and that is a violation of one of the Ten Commandments.
PERKINS: And how would you suggest I do that, Dan? This is about public policy which is to promote the greater good and in the best environment the social science --
SAVAGE: Not at the expense of minority rights and individual liberties.
PERKINS: -- the social sciences show overwhelmingly that children do better with a mom and dad.
SAVAGE: That is a lie. Those are studies that are funded by bigots; more bigots to justify bigotry. The studies you cite have all the validity of tobacco institute studies telling us in the 70's and 80's that smoking was safe.
COOPER: We have to go. I'm sorry, we have got to go.
The Mormon Church should lose its tax-exempt status over this.
The Mormon Church should lose its tax exempt status and pay a fine. I have to imagine when you have claimed a tax exempt status but then shown not to warrant same, isn't there a penalty?
this was a case of media supporting Prop 8 by accepting deceptive advertieing. every group, whether broken down by race or religion, had a hand in Prop 8 passing, mostly because of the lies and bigitry in the paid advertising.
I also hope tony doesn't pray to jesus with that mouth.
Some stuff you can't make up!
I don't want religions in my politics. I don't want religion in civil marriage. I don't want the government to sanction a religiously defined marriage.
Something tells me the Mormons don't want us to exert influence over their beliefs. Separation of church and state is a two-way street!
WOW
Dan Savage was awesome!
Took on that prick Perkins like a champ!
/impressed
Views on Same-Sex Marriage. I wish they would give them time to speak. And stop them from talking over each other,
I could debate Tony Pukings any day of the week, these shows need to allow more time.
I've seen Dan on, he has been on spot and great spokesman for the cause of discrimination against gays/lesbians/queers/trans.
For anyone interested:
National Protest against Prop 8
November 15th
⇒ Find a location in your area ⇐
Marriage Wars???.....
...really?
Is THIS What Gay Marriage Threatens the Sanctity Of?
Savage made me late for work as I became entrenched watching him rip apart that Bigot Perkins. Good way to start the day.
I was afraid he'd taken the election of Obama too hard...I guess he was simply hiding under the rock he lives under.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
He can go crawl under the rock from which he crawled and rot.
I'm just superstitious enough to hedge my bets.
What a total smack down!
Everyone should memorize his talking points because they solid and sound.
His closing line was classic. The GAWD lover was speechless.
This was truly enjoyable to watch.
Thank you, Dan!
1) Don't let an idiot like Perkins make his points based on a bad premise. Stop him before he starts. Pound this idiot until he learns to make honest arguments or otherwise expect to be called on it immediately.
2) You have to interrupt because he could filibuster the entire segment if you let him. At least Savage is capable of making a concise point with a beginning and an end.
3) Fuck. Him. We hear enough from his noise-hole as it is. Interrupt him until he grows a brain or until he goes away. Savage makes an excellent point in owning the fact that he interrupted Perkins several times: who is really suffering the most, the interrupter or the interruptee who has worked to take away the interrupter's civil rights?
I'm just superstitious enough to hedge my bets.
Who are the pee-pee police?
What kind of infinite creator of the endless universe gives a shit about whether people are using their courting tackle in the "right" manner?
What kind of fart-sniffing twerp is it that thinks about how other people go about bumping uglies?
Maybe they should consider getting some more productive hobbies...
Of course, when you get a buncha people who wear magic Sacred Underpants(TM) and prophecise the end of the USA and it's subsequent takeover by a Mor(m)on Theocracy...maybe we shouldn't be talking about taxing them.
Maybe it's time to pursue these sanctimonious thugs via RICO and close down a dangerous traitorous cult.
Now Perkins knows what the phrase "having your ass handed to you" is all about.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
I saw this in the morning getting ready for work. Perkins got bitch slapped...bigot.
is intended to be a factual statement
My husband and I got married never intending to have children. I hope our marriage isn't recalled by Perkins.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
When my wife and I got married, I was working nights and weekends and refused to be an absentee father, and we understood that having a child wasn't an option. So that would make us responsible adults and good parents.
But since we never had kids, I'm not living up to this perceived 'gotta have kids' song and dance Perkins and his ilk like to sell. So we're bad people.
all definitions provided by the american taliban are flexible to suit their purposes.
Some stuff you can't make up!
Is Savage the same guy who goes on Colbert's show sometimes?
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Same guy.
He's mostly known for his sex- and relationship-advice column that appears in newspapers and newspaper-magazines throughout the United States. It's called "Savage Love" and can be found online. It's what put him on the map, and it shows, because the man is clever, smart, and fearless with his words.
"When you strip me of my rights when I interrupt you, who is really suffering here?" - That sums it up all right there doesn't it?? The idea of 2 men or 2 women getting married just makes certain people "uncomfortable" so they decide to strip away the rights of gays and lesbians...
The claim about it not being like interracial message - BS
The claim about "traditional" marriage being about property exchange (ie. the woman) - Correct
The claim about what studies show concerning children raised by gay couples - BS
Savage is the man!!!
You got rattled by the truth and the facts about the constitution. How does it feel to be interrupted?
Make no motto of love that worships war
and tony was filibustering, so he had to be interrupted.
for once I'd like to see a media whore tell the filibusterer to STFU!
Some stuff you can't make up!
Good on him to call this "religious" hypocrite Perkins out. Phonies like Perkins seem to have a situational definition of what tolerance and acceptance are, unlike Jesus, who wanted to accept all unconditionally and define relationships and spirituality based on our common thread of humanity, not condemn and judge others based on sexual preferences.
Tony, spare us the fraud you call your religion. Judgment, condemnation, and intolerance are NOT Christian values. Charlatans like you have spread their toxic hatefulness in the name of religion for centuries. Evidentally you have learned nothing from your intolerant predecesssors who like you will eventually fail---because no lie stands forever.
"We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other."
Robert F. Kennedy
Yes the Mormon Church should lose their tax exempt status as a starting point. The American Taliban needs to be resisted. The radical Christians have been tolerated too long hiding behind their religion. The other Christians need to reclaim their religion or be painted with the same brush as these hypocrites. Straight non-religious person here who finds the likes of Tony Perkins and company dangerous to the freedoms of this country. The Mormon Church used to be extremely racist towards blacks and now they have found a new group to hate. We should refer to Mormons as gayist.
Everything is a business model.
the term is heterosexist. I learned of this term when a Unitarian church that I attended did a "Welcoming Congregation" project.
Back in the late seventies, the Mor(m)on church was about to lose their tax-exempt status over their refusal to ordain blacks as bishops.
And, lo! It came to pass that their prophet du jour (who was, no doubt, wearing SACRED MAGIC GOTCHIES) was informed by GOD his own self that blacks were verily and forsooth okay after all!
It was not recorded whether GOD wore his MAGIC UNDIES...
...God did say, "Hey! My only begotten son was of bronze skin and wooly hair and if you lily livered Mormons want to keep from being smited you'd best begin to recognize blacks.
Make no motto of love that worships war
First gays and what next? Christian extremist will start getting married and start breeding and American society will really start going to hell in a handbasket!
Straight people destroyed the sanctity of marriage long ago. If the first marriage is so special, is the second marriage 'less special'? Should a third marriage just be called 'next'?!
Those Vegas Wedding Chapel marriages are so holy and special.
/marriage is an archaic form of property transfer.
I wonder how long before Tony Perkins is caught on a men's room floor with Ted Haggard's d*ck in his mouth and Larry Craig's d*ck up his ass?
I'm sure just being near Dan Savage got his juices flowing.
look for a child to spank.
Some stuff you can't make up!
Given the explanations Perkins gave for Prop. 8 and the purpose of marriage, does he also believe there should be an amendment forcing all married couples to have a child within a certain length of time, ban infertile people from marrying unless they adopt, prevent married couple with children from divorcing no matter what, or forcing all widows and widowers with children to remarry within a certain amount of time or be forced to give their children up to "proper" households? How on earth could he make the claims he made and then say it's not the government's role to regulate marriage when that's exactly what he wants? I don't think he really has a logical rationale that holds up to much scrutiny.
It's past time to start going after organized religion. Put their f*cking rights up for ballot initiatives and see how they like it. Prop 9: Vote yes on disallowing Christofascist bigots from getting married and breeding!
Barry Goldwater warned the GOP that to allow the religious right a hand in the party was a grave mistake. They have disavowed Barry and made their base the religious right. Since they have become such a strong part of politics, they should be treated as other entities in taxes. If they want to voice their opinions in politics, they should pay taxes on every dollar they raise in their churches. To me they are answering the warning of Sinclair Lewis when he warned that fascism would come to the US and it would be wrapped in a flag carrying a cross. Perkins makes me gag as much as James Dobson. Hypocrites all.
The thing I liked about him best was his stance that the gov't should stay the HELL out of people's personal lives. He also was pro-choice. The GOP really let the religious (f)right screw their party up but good.
Tax the church for getting into politics and cut gay people's taxes until such time they get full rights. Why should thay pay full taxes and not get full rights? and on that not, if you need a f*cking tax break to have a baby don't have one!
He was GREAT on Colbert Report the other night as well. I love that he's out there telling it like it is. Perkins is a douchebag, and he and his christofascist ilk should have never been given any legitimacy.
I hope this really blows up in the Mormons' and Catholics' faces. I for one am going to do all I can to make sure our legislators hold them accountable for violating their tax-exempt status.
The American Taliban cannot say why they really are against gay marriage. They have been taught from an early age that it is not just their behavior but everyone behavior that their God judges them on. They feel that God will punish everyone for the actions of the few. This is the way they control people. If they were to say this out loud it would sound nuts so they use every other argument except the one they are most afraid of
He also does a great job on "Real Time with Bill Maher."
Mormons make me want to vomit. The Mormon church MUST have its tax-exempt status stripped.
And churches being spray painted and vandalized is just another reichwing talking point. Where's the proof pal?
first people perkins blames are blacks.
Some stuff you can't make up!
Yup, that's THE BEST THEY CAN DO!!
They love to divide and conquer. Get all the people they HATE to fight each other. They hate gays, they hate blacks, so they attempt to make them vote against each other.
Scumbags with nothing constructive to offer the American people!
Next, there will be a Proposition forcing everyone to wear silly underwear.
has no one noticed that gay marriages started in ct, without a peep from the christian conservatives?
wanna know why?
i love gavin newsome, but his showboating last year, in order to gain political points with the gay community was stupid
there will be blow back if you get into peoples faces
you can say, "well, we have every right to get into these haters faces" and you would be right...but there will be consequences
for example, this past week, there was a protest in palm springs...and older lady came down, with cross in hand and walked through the crowd...the protesters grabbed her cross threw it to the ground, began stomping on it and got right into her face
how can you talk of love with such hate?
trust me, take a page from mlk....anger and hate will not make the world change
Yeah that lady was full of the milk of human kindness, I'm sure.
had a hand in curdling that milk ..............
you kill with kindness
oh, and fuck tony perkins
wait a sec...he may like that
Another bigoted , racist , dim-witted Republican jerkoff ; is there no end to these type of cretins in the GOP ?
Tony Perkins looks like Norman Bates
Finally..
A Savage in the public eye we can all be proud of...
Come discuss it on
I really feel bad for gays. The good thing is that a majority of folks in California do believe that their civil rights are being trampled upon. I used to believe that gay marriage was incomparable to what interracial couples had to go through, but it does boil down to one thing: discrimination.
I hope they keep up the pressure. I agree with Dan Savage that Californians are split on the issue. If it were to go on the ballot again, gay marriage would pass. It's an important step forward. It will legitimize their love for one another, make people happier in general, and contribute to the economy.
Under an Obama administration, this can happen.
first, i dont think people really knew that they were rewriting the cali constitution
second, the yes on 8 people used scare tactics to get voters on their side
gay marriage will be taught in schools....churches and synagogues could be sued....clergy persons could be jailed....all bs
and the biggest bs was the whole, children need a mother and father
the final argument has nothing to do with gay marriage
tony may not know this, but gay people can be adoptive and foster parents in cali...so this amendment didnt stop that...dumbass christian
red states have the highest divorce rates and the highest rates of unmarried teen pregnancies
hey tony...you philosophy doesnt work
i win...kiss my fat white ass
Basically saying, thanks for the $700B, now don't bother me.
Asshat.
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
I fear the 700 billion is just a drop in the hat. EVERY corporation is now walking to the gov't with arms wide open and the gov't (including Obama and the Dems) are saying....OK
Isn't it nice how Perkins immediately throws black churches under the bus? If he were really concerned about religious freedom he would argue in defense of all churches. What a jerk.
For white people.
Turd Perkins is a White Supremacist...........
they used the black churches and preachers...but not one black face was in the front of any of the protests
but look at him try to pit one minority group against another
exactly my point.
Some stuff you can't make up!
I loved his defense of the role of courts to protect the rights of minority groups against the tyranny of the majority. So many people don't get that and fall for the "will of the people" line.
I'm ready to start a petition in defense of marriage, whereby we outlaw divorce, adultery and hetero-hypocrisy (think Larry Craig et. al.).
The Mormons should focus on the straights in this argument because they're the ones adversely affecting "the chiiiildren".
Great suggestion - we could call it Proposition 8.5
Ban Divorces - divorces are destroying families
Ban Premarital Sex - premarital sex is destroying marriage
Ban Extramarital Sex - extramarital sex relations are destroying marriages
Ban Marriages of Post Menopausal Women - post menopausal women can't produce children
Ban the Separation of Church and State - the State needs to be involved in how churches are run - the state needs to audit their collection plates
You get my drift - let's think outside of the box - these issues are going to need a FRAME change! Time for a paradigm shift - time for some mind change - time for some street theater.
Everything is a business model.
Why does the GOP always send out these closet queens to argue against homosexuality?
The Mormon Church should have its 501(c)(3) status revoked.
Nonetheless, opponents of Prop 8 failed to defeat its proponents.
There ought to be a serious, objective investigation of why.
I'll offer my own thoughts, as worthless as they may be.
Americans are scared as shit of having first graders taught about gay marriage.
They really don't give a shit (given a majority vote) about Ellen and Portia.
"PERKINS: -- the social sciences show overwhelmingly that children do better with a mom and dad."
Far more numerous and trustworthy studies show that good outcomes for children correlate directly with socio-economic class, so why don't we say you have to have a certain amount of money before you can get married? Because it's not about kids, it's a basic civil right! (And maybe because that would involve talking about class which would send most of the punditry into anaphyllactic shock...)
head shows
he is the only one i have seen in months with a full grasp of the issues who wont allow the wingnut to skew the facts
dan savage, our first gay president
savage in 2016
just as Jeff Gannon about that!
come on...bush is many things...but he was too busy banging condi to play around with jeff
The unimportant distractions the media portrays to take the masses minds of the coming Depression. This is way more important than the economy, or Iraq, or Afghanistan, or the global meltdown. Why, when push comes to shove, unemployment hits 26% worldwide, the only thing unemployed gays will be worried about is getting married ya know.
What the hell is the difference if gays/lesbians marry? Who does this threaten? Will the world as we know it implode? Will all hetrosexuals suddenly divorce and run off with their same sex lovers? Come on, let's get real. This is nothing more than a bunch of religious fearmongers trying to keep a group of citizens subjegated. IT is sick and will probably (once everybody gets their heads out of their asses) be viewed as one of the dumbest causes ever.
jmj680:
Do not underestimate the number of people who genuinely believe that such things --- or even worse --- will come to pass. Their rhetoric is indeed that apocalyptic, and many of them really, really do believe such nonsense.
Everyone is equally entitled to the pursuit of happiness. Wasn't that once self evident?
Can gays be polygamists?
Damn straight we can!
...on November 3rd! Someone should tell Perkins that these sorts of ballot initiatives by churches actually encourage same-sex marriage -- ahahahah!
Okay, I don't really believe in what I'm about to propose. At least, I don't think I do. But here's a possible alternative strategy to fighting the likes of Perkins, who insist that his crusade does not entail oppression, discrimination or the removal of rights, but simply that the word "marriage" is somehow sacrosanct, and must remain a 1-man/1-woman union for the sake of religious freedom.
How about an alternative constitutional amendment for the next election:
Or something like that. Then, we can have our heterosexual allies (the, ahem, non-bigots) to officially re-dub their own marriages UniMarriages on their marriage licenses, and we can all start a campaign for new couples, whether they be heterosexual or homosexual to proclaim that they are getting UniMarried.
We can turn the separate-but-equal sentiments of Perkins' ilk on their head, and make "marriage" mean exactly what Perkins says he wants it to mean: A sacrosanct, sectarian union, separately recognized as such between the man and woman who choose to designate themselves as different from others.
Let's see if we can get both heterosexual and homosexual people saying, "Oh, I'm not just married. I'm UniMarried," thereby affirming their belief in equality with their own unions, and relegating those who care so much about the word "marriage" to separatist status.
:)
Everyone is equally entitled to the pursuit of happiness. Wasn't that once self evident?
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Its hard to stomach Perkins and his pals playing the victim all the time. he got what he wanted didn't he? he stripped rights from a class of people by appealing to fear and ignorance, and now he wants me to hand him a tissue?
I saw Tony Perkins a few years back on 'Hardball' when he asserted that he knew there were WMDs because Israeli Military Intelligence had shown him aerial photos of the WMDs being smuggled across the Syrian border as the War began. I thought, 'Why on earth does this moron have access to Israeli military intel?' To me that was evidence that the Israelis might have been using American right-wing 'Christian' leaders as 'useful idiots' in order to spread pro Iraq War propaganda. Any reputable journalist would have pounced on that, but Tweety, as usual, wasn't paying attention and went on to rant and muse about some matter interesting only to himself.
Anyway, add Spy/Traitor to Idiot, Liar and Bigot when you think of Perkins.
Thank you Dan, Tony Perkins should be drawn and quartered, period. All Christians are liars, no exceptions! Get your Jesus off my penis please, shew, go back to the desert! Dan on the other hand can do whatever he wants with it.
"All Christians are liars" - damn near a Perfect statement! and one most people would shy away from, I am so sick of people saying that they can use their religious beliefs to belittle another person, but if someone turns around and belittles their church or blind faith then they act offended - OH! How can you say such things about my invisible friend...oops I meant: How can you say such things about my GOD!
I agree with George Carlin who said that the most devient crimes and criminals would disapear in a few generations once Religion was outlawed.
I thought churches only had fronds on their doors during Eastertide.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I say the right wing can have their ban on Marriage, as long as they are willing to acknowledge that it's little more then bigotry.
I was actually surprised to her Savage mention bigotry at the end there, but that's what it is, the blind hatred of another for no real reason.
Yes, let them have their ban on marriage. But no more second, third, etc. marriages.
No childless marriages.
Sure it wouldn't pass but people are pissed off enough to get it on the ballot and it would also mock such idiotic attempts with social injustice:
"Marriage is between one pig and one spider"
That statement in no way reflects unforeseen caricatures of my experiences with men or women, well maybe a little..
If they don't want Gay Marriage then I say to be equal we eliminate ALL marriages, everyone is getting a Civil Union!!!
Couldn't you just picture getting down on one knee and looking the person you love in the eye and asking "Will you union with me?" - hell in most cases it would be better to ask (right up front) "will you be civil with me?" - not enough people look into that before marriage do they?
Dahgrostabph-r-i:
My partner and I have no real interest in marriage for ourselves, except in a strictly legal sense (i.e. if the rights or property arrangements entailed will somehow benefit us legally or monetarily or with taxes, fine, but there is no real significance to it otherwise). We don't need our relationship sanctioned by the state.
With that in mind, we always refer to one another as "my partner." It's quite meaningful to us. We are committed partners, and we personally think that "my partner" sounds better than "my wife" or "my husband," even for the heterosexual couples (many of whom we know who call themselves "partners" as well). There's an equality built right into the word regardless of the sex of the person referenced.
It would be pretty cool if people thought about whether they should really "unionize" as you suggest.
Oh, and given your suggestion, whaddaya think of mine above? :)
Everyone is equally entitled to the pursuit of happiness. Wasn't that once self evident?
Has Bristol Palin married Captain Asskicker yet? Marriage should be between two unwilling teenagers.
Marriage should be between a man and all of his wives, or vice-versa. And they should be allowed to marry as many times as it takes to get it reich er... um... right.
If marriage is something sacred, then wtf is the government doing by marrying people. Isn't that a separation of church and state issue? Perhaps then, there should be a defining and separation of a "sacred" church marriage and the secular public marriage under constitutional law, state law or whatever.
It's time for all of us to help turn the country around from the disastrous course we've been on towards a theocracy. KEEP CHURCH AND STATE SEPARATE as the founders intended. It has served us well for over 200 years. The Mormon church is a threat to our democracy.
as for prop 8- a nationwide protest is scheduled for this Saturday.
http://jointheimpact.com/
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The oft argument:
"Marriage is between a man and a woman"
But why not:
"Marriage is between TWO CONSENTING ADULTS"
The oft argument:
"Marriage is for procreation"
But why not:
"Ban infertile men and women from marriage."
The oft argument:
"Children deserve a mom and a dad."
But why not:
"Legislate anti-single parenting laws."
The oft argument:
"Protect the 'sanctity' of marriage"
But why not:
"Outlaw the greatest threat to ANY marriage; DIVORCE."
.
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Save the World.
I interrupt you, who's really suffering?"
Exactly. You go Dan! And I'm a podcast listening regular.
fundamentalists, evangelicals, mormons, etc...then where in the hell are the state propositions regarding "dead beat dads"?
my biological father packed his bags & took off when i was 11 years old. he left my mom with three kids, aged 11 to 13, with massive debt, as well as the rent to pay. and he quit his job to abandon us for a warmer state, so there went health insurance. my mom had been a house wife for 18 years, and had only had 1 outside the home job before being a house wife - a bank teller for 3 months before meeting my dad. so, i think the reader of this comment can grasp the financial, emotional hell my "dad" created by abandoning us.
my story is just one of millions. where is the religious furor over the so many men who have zero problem walking away from their responsibility? oh yeah, i forgot...the religious nuts have addressed this many times in th past...it's all the fault of the single moms who apparently WANT to be single moms. or some ludicrous argument like that, that firmly puts the blame on the female gender.
anyhow, i propose a state proposition that allows california to hire private investigators to track down dead beat dads, not just in-state, but nationally or internationally, and forces them to AT LEAST be financially responsible for their children. we can have forced labor and forced family visitation, since research shows that children need a mom and a dad.
but, we all know this isn't about "protecting traditional marriage". ha. this is bigotry and homophobia, pure and simple.
It's time for the Democrats to take up this gauntlet and change the framing on this.
"A child needs a mom and a dad." This has been disproven repeatedly, and besides, kids do better with ANY parents than NO parents, and many kids have NO parents. Who better to adopt kids, than gay people that can't have them (except expensively)?
"You're re-defining marriage." If you're going to have civil unions (which we do) how does that not "detract from marriage" as much as having gay marriage does? If they don't want to be married to a gay person, no one's forcing them to, are they? Do they think that straight people are going to divorce so that they can marry someone gay?
It needs to be emphasized at each and every opportunity that this is just like banning interracial marriage. Pound them on being bigots, and never stop. And continually pound the supporters of this stuff with protests.
These religious screwballs make me sick!They base their values on a book in the bible that was written 2000 years ago when people believed in demons,witches,talking snakes,and a dead person coming back to life,and an omnipotent,invisible fairy, who just happens to life in the sky! It also says in Leviticus "if your children do not honor parents" the kids have only one punishment and that is.....Ground them?No, they were to be taken to the town square and stoned to death!But if you show these asshole holy rollers this, they will do their best to try and twist what this insane part of the bible says about this and many sexual things! The sooner organized religion goes the way of burning witches the better!
Why shouldn't gays be able to tie the knot?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzlkvI9EZeA
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Hmmmm....Is this guy related to Norman Bates??!!!
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
Savaged by Dan, Tony gets owned.
My question to all of these religilous bigots is:
What's it TO you, if gays and lesbians get together?
How does my friends love affect the "sanctity" of yours? It's so galling to see someone like Perkins get all up in something that's NONE OF HIS GOD DAMNED BUSINESS?
Savage's best retort: I hope Tony doesn't pray to God with that mouth.
This is exactly why we need to teach logic to kids before they get to college age in our country. Perkins is a religious hypocrite, and anyone with any skills in logic can see that.
Marriage is neither a religious institution, nor is it an institution about children. And anyone with logic skills can see that. We marry atheists. We marry infertile couples. Who on the religious right wants to argue that atheist heterosexuals can't be married? I've heard a lot of whacked-out theories from them lately, but never once have I heard one of them argue that atheist heterosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry. And likewise, never once have I heard a religious person argue that a post-menopausal woman shouldn't be permitted to marry. Surely they realize that a post-menopausal woman is incapable of producing a child via sexual activity. Yet do they rail against a heterosexual man having sex with his post-menopausal wife? Surely they understand that such sexual activity is completely incapable of producing a child. So is it immoral for a post-menopausal or otherwise infertile woman to have sex with her husband? Of course it's not. And these religious-right people know better than to even suggest it.
So there we have it. Non child-producing sex is reserved for heterosexuals. Non child-producing marriages are reserved for heterosexuals. And that is pure hypocrisy. Tony Perkins -- you do not represent Jesus in the least. Jesus would have smacked you upside your head for being such a hypocrite.
Tony Perkins is absolutely disgusting. He cites essays and sociological research to support his archaeic thought processes but of course doesn't mention who writes the essays or conducts the research--it's all done by fellow bigots. Like so many other things--the abolishment of slavery, women's suffrage, civil rights--Perkins, his church, and every other institution promoting a same-sex marriage ban will find that they were again on the wrong side of history and in no way can say with any credibility what it is that a higher power wants from us. For Perkins and others it's all about holding onto power as they feel it slipping away. The insecurities these people evoke is amazing to see. Dan Savage should be applauded for his strength and candor as an advocate for not only gay-marriage but for all minority rights.
That Tony Perkins guy is so hung up about homosexuality, if I were you, I'd keep my sons away from him. You know what Freud said about projection and protesting too much.
"Respect for the rights of others is peace." --Benito Juarez
I thought Dan Savage was great! Tony Perkins is such an a-hole! Savage took apart every argument that Perkins tried to use. Dan's point about the Mormon Church using its power to push the amendment, then hiding behind it's "church sanctity" thing to shield themselves from criticism was really a great point.
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