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Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman on Sunday clashed with Fox News host Greta Van Susteren after she asserted that President Barack Obama's administration was strangling small businesses with "laughable" regulations.

"No one's paying much attention to these small businesses," Van Susteren opined during an ABC panel discussion. "The regulations that are strangling them, some are laughable and silly, but they have profound impact on the job creators, those who are making jobs. They can't afford to hire people."

"There's been tons of work on this," Krugman pointed out. "And what's holding small business back is not regulation, it's the fact that they don't have sales. There's no correlation."

"Which parts of the economy do small businesses complain about regulation, which don't -- there's no correlation between that an actual job creation."

ABC host George Stephanopoulos suggested that the "one exception" could be Obama's health care reform law, which requires businesses with 50 or more employees to provide health insurance.

"Don't you see some firms cutting off at 49?" the ABC host wondered.

"There might be but you can't see that in the numbers," Krugman explained.

"Instead of looking at just numbers, why don't you sit down and talk to them?" Van Susteren interrupted. "And if you actually talk to these people, a lot of them are struggling with this. They don't understand a lot of the things that happen to them, they don't understand a lot of things that happen in Washington. They're very cautious because they see a dismal economy out there."

"I have talked to them, that's not what they're saying to me," Krugman shot back.

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So much for all of that rhetoric about small businesses being the engine of our economy and job growth. After the news this week that Wal-Mart has decided to pull back its efforts to open a store in Brooklyn, New York amidst protests and political pressure, the talking heads on Fox's "business block" decided this was a perfect opportunity for another round of union bashing -- which is pretty much their favorite thing to do on Saturday mornings. However, panel member Dagen McDowell may have let one slip when she decided to attack "mom and pa" stores as well.

When it was pointed out by her fellow guest, Adam Lashinsky on Fox' Cavuto on Business this Saturday, that how many small businesses are going to end up being shut down if Wal-Mart is allowed in ought to be part of the debate, McDowell wound up the segment by saying that "mom and pa need to get over it."

And of course even though all of them had plenty of time to complain about how terrible those evil union thugs were for keeping that wonderful "job creator" Wal-Mart out of Brooklyn and for stomping on the hopes of all of those poor people out there just dying to get one of those minimum wage jobs, the true cost of the way Wal-Mart does business with shoving their costs onto the taxpayers never came up.

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If anyone needs a break from the typical fare we're treated to on the bobblehead shows on Sundays, check out some of Chris Hayes' show from this Saturday. It's rare that this kind of in depth and comprehensive discussion happens, even rarer where the discussion is so good, it's worth highlighting multiple segments. But that's exactly the case with this discussion of President Obama's proposal to raise the minimum wage made during his state of the union address, that is already being clouded by the fog of talking points in DC:

Then we’ll dive deep on the president’s proposal to raise the federal minimum wage from $7.25 $9 an hour, and to index the minimum wage according to inflation, so that it keeps pace with the cost of living. Republicans and business groups have lined up in opposition to a minimum wage increase, and in doing so, they’ve repeated a talking point that has been common in Washington for decades: that an increase in the minimum wage would lead to reductions in employment. As it turns out, there’s a growing body of empirical evidence that indicates that minimum wage increases, within a certain range, have no negative impact on employment, and may actually boost worker productivity and consumer demand, providing a much-needed stimulus to the economy.

For the most part, Hayes' guests were outstanding and really informative to listen to, with the exception of the Hispanic Leadership Network's Jennifer Sevilla Korn. She may be the kinder, gentler face of the Republican Party with toned down rhetoric with respect to the immigration issue, but on Hayes' show, she was nothing but a right wing talking points regurgitation machine with little to no facts to back up her assertions.

If you listen to her carefully during her time on the show, she was challenged by Hayes quite a few times to give specifics for her claims about minimum wage supposedly causing businesses not to hire or that it might cause inflation. How often does that happen? And just like a typical conservative, she never answers him. The same can't be said for the others on the panel who were more than willing to talk about specifics and shoot holes straight through her talking points.

In the segment above, Lew Prince, owner of Vintage Vinyl, Inc. a small business in St. Louis, Missouri, talked about his invitation to come to the White House with a number of other small business owners and they were asked by President Obama "What can I do for you?" Prince recounted that the first thing they all said in unison was to raise the minimum wage to $10 per hour, because "putting three hundred bucks a month in the hands of the customers is the best economic stimulus the country can have and that money tends to get spent in the businesses more than any other."

Unlike Korn, Prince's point is backed up by research.

A 2011 study by the Chicago Federal Reserve Bank finds that minimum wage increases raise incomes and increase consumer spending, especially triggering car purchases. The authors examine 23 years of household spending data and find that for every dollar increase for a minimum wage worker results in $2,800 in new consumer spending by his or her household over the following year.

A 2009 study by the Economic Policy Institute estimates that Obama’s campaign pledge to raise the minimum wage to $9.50 by 2011 would inject $60 billion in additional spending into the economy.

The National Employment Law Project's Tsedeye Gebreselassie followed up by discussing the fact that 74 percent of the public supports raising the minimum wage. Unlike the conservatives speaking out against it, they understand that that one cannot live on the current wage and that the minimum wage has not kept pace with inflation. They know the opposition is with the lawmakers supporting the top wage earners only.

Korn cites some unspecified economist-- who of course isn't a partisan--telling her that raising minimum wage is going to cause inflation. While that might be true if it is raised too high or if the economy was in a period of stagflation, that's not the political environment we have now and Prince countered her argument quite nicely.

PRINCE: You won't get a business owner that says that and I'll tell you what, the portion of wages, that is in my cost, is actually relatively small and even in the manufacturing and a whole lot of areas. It is relatively small. My overhead is complicated and large, and the minimum wage and the wage, is actually a small part of it. And prices in America, this is, you know, the great secret – prices in America are not set by the cost of making something or doing something. Prices are set by what market research tells most companies you are willing to pay. You know, the reason a beer is ten bucks at Yankee stadium isn't because...

HAYES: Of course not.

PRINCE: … you can get it there to the bar across the street where it is two bucks.

In the next segment the panel discussed the two different arguments we're seeing from Republicans on why they're against raising the minimum wage. One being the that it will cause a negative effect on employment and the other being that it will cause price spikes that the system cannot absorb.

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I have to give CNN's Ali Velshi kudos here, because he did something we don't see often enough on our corporate media. He fact checked someone right on the air and called them out for not telling the truth during an interview. Then he followed up during the same program so the viewers who watched the interview would see it. I was glad to see that happen during his New Year's Ever interview with Rep. Tim Huelskamp.

He actually went a long way in making up for the terrible interview with Huelskamp's fellow wingnut Rep. Marsha Blackburn the previous evening, where he allowed her to filibuster him and rattle off way too many of her talking points unchecked. I still don't think it makes up for him having the Wall Street Journal hack Stephen Moore just about every stinking week on his weekend show, Your Money, without some liberal economists for balance.

Velshi laid into Huelskamp for pretending that raising taxes on those making over $250,000 a year is going to harm a large number of the small businesses out there and those so-called "job creators," and gave him some grief for the stats he was quoting as well.

Ali Velshi Tears Into GOP Congressman Over ‘Misleading Statistic’: ‘You’re On CNN Right Now’:

Huelskamp disputed Velshi’s claim and said that he had “seen research” that raising taxes would impact “41% of business income.” Velshi called him out on his language, saying “41% of business income is not 41% of business, that’s a very, very different and somewhat misleading statistic.” Again Velshi asked, “You understand the distinction, right?”

Velshi then proceeded to silence Huelskamp from speaking any further, saying, “Sir, you put out information to our viewers, you’re on CNN right now. I would like the information to be accurate.” Huelskamp fought to answer, and when he was asked by Velshi whether he wanted to stand by his information, he said, “That’s our best guess. We’re still working on that.”

“I think that’s a guess,” Velshi retorted.

According to Huelskamp, part of the difficulty in obtaining accurate information is that the Obama administration won’t tell his team anything. Velshi slammed him for this misstatement, saying, “We actually don’t have any difficulty getting that information, sir. We don’t need it from the administration, that information is public.”

The post at Mediaite did not take note of the fact that he followed up during the same hour and fact checked Huelskamp for the viewers who had just watched the interview. I say good for him for doing this. It's too bad that this is the exception and not the norm on every channel with any politician who comes on the air and lies to the viewers.

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VELSHI: Wolf, I just want to... I've been doing some research as I promised I would do in the conversation that we had with Congressman Tim Huelskamp, quoting what he said was a study by Montana State University. We're working our way through that study, but I'll tell you the facts that we have right now.

If businesses... if everybody who earned more than $250 thousand saw an increase in the top tax rate from 36 percent to 39.6 percent, that would be 3.5 percent of all small businesses. That would be 940,000 businesses. That's I think a number that the Congressman was quoting. So at $450,000, it is nowhere near the number that the Congressman was quoting.

But let's just be generous and say that it was that. Of that number, only a very small proportion are not hedge funds, partnerships, law firms, companies that don't employ a whole lot of other people. So the Congressman's facts are just incorrect on this. There is nowhere near a million businesses that will be affected by this increase of taxing people above $450,000.

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Given he's from New York and has done more than his share to make sure our government policies are friendly to Wall Street, the big banks and the hedge fund managers, I was pleasantly surprised to hear Chuck Schumer take his fellow Senator, Jon Kyl to task for trying to pretend that you're going to hurt a lot of small businesses if you raise taxes on those making over $250,000 a year.

I've heard this argument so many times from Republicans, it's ridiculous and ABC This Week host Jonathan Karl wasn't much better than Kyl here with trying to pretend like you're going to damage the economy if the wealthiest among us have their taxes go up a few percentage points for their income over a quarter of a million dollars.

KARL:  But I've got to ask you about this question about -- because this is one of the big sticking points left, is whose taxes go up?  Is it people making over $250,000, as the president wants, or Republicans suggested nobody, or people making over a $1 million?
 
But you, Senator Schumer, had proposed raising taxes only on those making over $1 million.  And I want to take a look at what you said about this proposal, going at $250,000.  This was last year.  You said, "In the eyes of many, it is hard to ask households making $250,000 or $300,000 a year -- in large parts of the country, that kind of income does not get you a big home or lots of vacations or anything else that is associated with wealth.  It also would affect too many small businesses." 
 
Weren't you right back then, when you said it was wrong to raise taxes on those...
 
(CROSSTALK) 
 
SCHUMER:  Well, look, we offered that to our Republican colleagues two years ago, when the political landscape was different.  They rejected it.  And then the president, sticking to $250,000, campaigned on it openly, overtly.  He won the election on it overwhelmingly on that issue; 60 percent of the public was with him. 
 
So that is our position.  It's a position that brings in more revenues.  And what we have learned, as the fiscal situation deteriorated, if you go much higher than $250,000, to raise the rest of the revenues you need, you're going to hurt the middle class as you take away their tax deductions.  So it's the right place...
 
KARL:  But you said back then...
 
SCHUMER:  ... to be.
 
KARL:  But you said back then it would affect too many small businesses.  Frankly, you sounded a little like Senator Kyl. 
 
SCHUMER:  Well, the bottom line is very, very simple, and that is that if you do -- if you go much above $250,000, you're going to hurt the middle class even worse and small businesses even worse by having to take away tax deductions.  That's not the place we were at two years ago.  It is the place we're at now, because the situation is deteriorating. 
 
KYL:  Jonathan, it's exactly the opposite.  The higher you set that level, the less small business you're going to hit.  And you're exactly right, and Chuck was right back when he talked about a million, because the increase in the tax rates for individual taxpayers sweeps in about a million small-business owners.  Remember, about half of small businesses are women-owned.  And it sweeps them up because they don't pay corporate tax rates; they pay as individuals. 
 
KARL:  But -- but...
 
SCHUMER:  Wait a second.  That's counting big hedge funds as small businesses, big Hollywood productions, like Oprah Winfrey, as small businesses.  It affects very few.  We all know mom-and-pop small businesses, the dry cleaner down the street and others, don't make millions and millions of dollars.

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The Republican National Committee (RNC) announced this week that it would craft its convention theme around President Barack Obama's "You didn't build that" remark -- which was taken out of context to suggest that business owners "didn't build" their businesses -- and the party will unveil that message in an arena that was mostly built with government funds.

The Daily Dolt noted on Wednesday that part of the GOP message may be undermined by the fact that the Tampa Bay Times Forum arena -- where the convention is being held -- was financed with $86 million in public money.

During a campaign event in Virginia last month, Obama had pointed out the importance of the government's role in providing infrastructure and education as a foundation for small business success.

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help," the president explained. "There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen."

In a series of ads and speeches, presumptive Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney's campaign selectively edited those remarks by removing the reference to "roads and bridges," making it seem like the president was dismissing the success of small business owners.

"In speeches and videos, the Romney campaign has repeatedly distorted Obama's words," PolitiFact wrote. "By plucking two sentences out of context, Romney twists the president's remarks and ignores their real meaning. ... Romney and his supporters have misled viewers and given a false impression. For that, we rate the claim False."

The RNC is now taking those attacks to the next level by making "We Built This!" the central theme of their convention at the Tampa Bay Times Forum arena, according to Fox News.

Originally called The Ice Palace, the arena was built in 1996 at a cost of $139 million, 62 percent of which was publicly financed.

"Kind of kills that idea that it doesn't take a village, right?" The Atlantic's Alexander Abad-Santos observed.

(h/t: Political Wire)

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Former Obama economic adviser Austan Goolsbee asserted on Sunday that Republicans "would classify Mitt Romney's horse as a small business" if they thought it would help them convince Americans that taxes shouldn't be raised on the wealthy.

During an ABC News discussion about the federal deficit, The Wall Street Journal's Kimberly Strassel argued that the 3 percent of small businesses that would be impacted by ending the Bush-era tax cuts for the richest Americans were actually the "most important and productive business generators in the country."

"Republicans talk about small businesses like you want them to think about mom-and-pops [shops]," Rep. Chris Van Hollen (D-MD) explained, adding that Republicans would classify Bain Capital -- the firm presumptive Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney founded -- as a small business.

"They would classify Mitt Romney's horse as a small business," Goolsbee interrupted.

"It's true!" Van Hollen agreed. "Hedge fund owners, Fortune 100 companies all come under this rubric of small business."

Earlier this month, Ann Romney’s dressage horse, Rafalca, competed in the 2012 London Olympics.

In 2010, the Romneys took more tax deductions on their horses than most Americans earn in a year. According to The New York Times, the couple “declared a loss of $77,000 on their 2010 tax returns for the share in the care and feeding of Rafalca.”

Census Bureau statistics show that the mean yearly per capita income for individuals in the U.S. between 2006 and 2010 was $27,334.

Republican vice presidential candidate Paul Ryan suggested on Friday that Romney's background was "starting small businesses."

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This level of stupidity in this segment really is enough to just make your head hurt. Here's some of the latest from Fox, attacking President Obama by taking out of context his "you didn't build that" remarks. Georgia lumberyard owner hammers Obama on 'You didn't build that':

President Obama's message to entrepreneurs that "you didn't build that" prompted one Georgia business owner to respond with a not-so-subtle retort.

"I built this business without gov't help. Obama can Kiss my ass," reads the sign outside Gaster Lumber & Hardware in Savannah, Ga. Owner Ray Gaster posted that and two similar ones at all three of his company's locations in response to Obama's comments during a speech to supporters in Virignia, which struck a nerve with small business owners around the nation. [...]

Since the comments created a firestorm, Obama's campaign has sought to put the comments in perspective, saying that Obama only meant that businesses rely on the community to flourish. Yet, his opponents have seized on the remarks, making them something of a small business rallying cry.

Gaster, a Vietnam veteran, told FoxNews.com he built his now 28-year-old business from the ground up.

"I started on my own," Gaster said. "The government wasn't there. We work long, hard hours and what he said is an insult to any businessman."

The sign has been criticized for its harsh language, but Gaster said that the rough words were necessary.

"When I heard what he said, I said 'I'm going to give him an answer in Chicago language--something he's used to,'" he told FoxNews.com. "If I would have said 'Dear Mr. President...' there wouldn't have been as strong of a response."

Here's the real kicker though. Here's what he told Fox in the segment in the video above from Megyn Kelly's show. The sheer stupidity of his statements are breathtaking:

GASTOR: All these things that he mentioned, the roads, the teachers, the mentors, what have you, they're available to everyone and that road runs both ways. It can lead to success and I guess it can lead to failure. And I guess that when people fail... you know the logic, it just makes no sense at all. So people fail, it's all our fault? Because the bridge... the road didn't do something. And I've never saw a bridge or a road that met a payroll. That's never happened in my business and I don't think it's happened in any other small business out there.

He's got a problem with logic alright. Good gawd. Nothing like Fox just finding any excuse possible to show some angry Southern bigot cursing at our first black president. Way to keep it classy Fox.

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MSNBC's Ed Schultz and E.J. Dionne highlighted some of Media Matters reporting this Wednesday evening on Fox News running 42 segments taking President Obama's words out of context during a campaign stop in Virginia. And now we've got the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, Mitt Romney repeating the distortions as well.

As both Schultz and Dionne pointed out, the Romney campaign is desperate to change the subject from his time at Bain Capital and his refusal to release his tax returns and they're getting desperate. Anyone with an ounce of common sense realizes what the President was talking about during his speech and as Schultz and Dionne noted, he was making the same points as we heard from Elizabeth Warren when she said this on a speaking tour last year: There's Nobody in This Country Who Got Rich on His Own, Says Elizabeth Warren.

Romney knows he's lying and distorting Obama's words, but he's been lying so much on the campaign trail, he's not going to stop now. And at a campaign stop in Ohio, Romney let the audience there know he actually agreed with President Obama's underlying point: Romney Doubles Down On ‘You Didn’t Build That’ — Then Affirms Obama’s Point. As Ed Schultz pointed out, they can't run against the President's actual record or what he's been saying on the campaign trail, so they've got to resort to making things up.

Here's more from Media Matters: REPORT: Fox News Spends Two-Plus Hours Distorting Obama's Small Business Comments:

Over two days, Fox News spent 42 segments and more than two hours of airtime manufacturing a scandal by deceptively editing comments President Obama made at a campaign appearance in Virginia.

On July 13, Obama made the unremarkable observation that business owners do not achieve success in a vacuum, but that public infrastructure - such as roads, schools, and fire departments - create a community that supports businesses:

OBAMA: If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business -- you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don't do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

Media conservatives have distorted those comments to accuse the president of expressing hostility toward business.

In discussing the speech relentlessly in the past 2 days, Fox has fixated on the passage where Obama said, "If you've got a business, you didn't build that." But Fox ignores what Obama was talking about before saying "you didn't build that," when he touted "this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive," and said: "Somebody invested in those roads and bridges."

Fox's manufactured controversy has now become the focus of an official Mitt Romney campaign ad. Read on...

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During the GOP debate in Florida, after lying and claiming that the first round of stimulus didn't create any jobs, even though that stimulus package likely kept us from plunging into another Great Depression at the rate we were hemorrhaging jobs when President Obama got elected, Gov. Rick Perry went on to claim that of course, he's the one that really understands what we need to do to create jobs.

And what was one of his suggestions? "Free up" Wall Street. So after all of the excesses we've seen from these birds with the collapse of the housing market and practically destroying our economy, Perry thinks we need more of it. Wonderful.

We also got a nice little dog-whistle out of him with his claim that "people are tired of spending money we don't have on programs we don't want." Which of course is code for welfare, or programs that help the poor rather than his rich cronies.

I can't wait to see these guys have to defend some of these comments when the general election comes around.

Transcript via CNN below the fold.

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