June 15, 2009 01:00 PM
A Sea of Green
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More video from today in Tehran. This gives a much better representation of the scope and magnitude of it all. And also the possible repercussions when millions go to the streets in protest.
Iran is a Theocracy, both major candidates were approved by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
I think it's more about a fair election the lesser of 2 evils.....kinda like we are often faced with in our elections, lesser of 2 evils.
yup, but more than that the Ayatollah is threatened here. The
same kind of demonstrations that put the Shah out can put the
Ayatollah out. His detractors have been emboldened by the
controversial election and he could lose power too. He very
wisely reversed his decision and hopefully will follow through
with a comprehensive election review.
You must mean when two repugs run for the same job.
My revision that didn't happen:
Iran is ostensibly a 'democracy'. In fact it is a Theocracy. Both major candidates were approved by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.
The USA is ostensibly a 'democracy'. In fact it is a Corporatocracy. The major candidates are approved by the corporations (through their campaign contributions).
The Iranian Theocracy and the US Corporatocracy tend to be at odds.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
nominated Obama. As I recall his financial support during the campaign was largely small donations from individuals.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/08/barackob...
The article says the money came from the employees of those companies. Those are large companies and have a whole lot of employees. It wouldn't surprise me that many of them felt that Obama was the best candidate. I doubt their company told them which candidate to donate to and how much.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Those employees were organized by the executives, you can only give $2300 under law, but they can "encourage" their employees to "give".
You can surmise the best intentions of the employees, that is fine.
Consider the outcome of legislation as a better guide for what they got for their contributions.
Massive welfare for the Financial Services Oligarchs.
A credit card bill that does NOT reign in usury, the sky is still the limit.
Single payer is off the table.
GM in bankruptcy to swindle the unions, their pensions and ultimately allow GM to move to China.
And who knows what vis a vis Iran?
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Work it ...work it!!!
If only these peeps would read a little Chomsky!!!
Towards a New Cold War and The Chomsky Reader. We can't completely escape corporate influence but we can dilute it with popular support. Besides I would have voted for Bo Obama before I would have voted for McCain/Palin
The tax exempt influence alongside the corporation(s).
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Yes, from people like me who gave more to this candidate than any candidate before.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
It was the first time I had given a polotician money since Jimmy Carter
Where did I say nominated? I said approved.
Open Secrets here.
Which Corporations approved Obama?
By Industry here
Top Contributors here
You can follow all of them.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Oh Alice...I love it when you make links!
Poor attempt on your part to say repugs and dems are the same.
Republicrats is the term.
Is that any better?
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
That still leaves a question... Whats under the label?
Study the symptoms not the virus...
View the results of the government's actions to determine the meaning of the label.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Thanks for your time... ♥
Amended: Would you consider these key factors in making a determination? As far as the banking issue... absent further knowledge and just action, I too find the current status lacking reform. Though it does bring to mind that song... ♪♫♪ you and me against the world ♪♫♪!
#1: Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
#2: Disdain for the importance of human rights.
#3: Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.
#4: The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.
#5: Rampant sexism.
#6: A controlled mass media.
#7: Obsession with national security.
#8: Religion and ruling elite tied together.
#9: Power of corporations protected.
#10: Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.
#11: Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts.
#12: Obsession with crime and punishment.
#13: Rampant cronyism and corruption.
#14: Fraudulent elections.
[ http://teresacentric.com/2007/08/is-the-moder... ]
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Keep your head in the clouds and your feet off the ground.
represent only a small fraction of the donations. If you're arguing that he is paying attention only to the largest contributors I would suggest you are misjudging the man's intelligence. I think he knows where most of the butter on his bread came from and I think he probably understands that corporations do not vote in presidential elections.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
This was taken from one of Alice's links above:
"Obama's victory in the general election was aided by his tremendous fundraising success. Since the start of 2007, his campaign relied on bigger donors and smaller donors nearly equally,..."
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
depends on how you define small and big. Five dollars is small. What is big? Two hundred? A thousand? Look at corporate donations versus individuals donations and for the first time in living memory you have a president who could tell every single corporate donor to pound salt and still have the cash to get elected or re-elected.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
... I remember vividly how Obama just told the Health/Insurance companies to f*ck off and not interfere with the health care reform. Oh wait...
In the US constitution is the presidential authority granted that would allow him to do any such thing.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
You used the term 'pound salt' which I like better than 'f*ck off' but it sounds like the same idea to me.
Teddy Roosevelt called it the bully pulpit and it worked for him.
He took on the heavy weights of his day and the American people won.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
But we must preserve a certain decorum. If you haven't read the Shock Doctrine I heartily recommend it. It turns out to be something that can be used for good as well as ill. That seemed to escape Ms. Klein. The current economic dislocation is allowing the president to do things that otherwise couldn't be done. I don't know if you'll successfully reform health care or properly regulate Wall Street but if it wasn't for our current distress they and every other reform wouldn't even be on the table. It's too early in the game to call for conclusions.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
It is not too early to understand what is going on.
War in Aghanistan, Pakistan (don't look don't see) and maybe Iran.
Tom Engelhardt here
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Everything going on in those countries is direct blowback from the cold war policies of support for the mujaheddin and the reckless abandonment of the area after the Soviets withdrew. Allowing this area of the world to fester worse into an island of extremism where the possibility of Pakistan's nukes falling into the wrong hands would be daylight madness.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
Right here:
http://ampedstatus.com/bill-maher-rips-obama-...
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
"Jesus told me to fix Health Care!!"
If a drone kills a child in Kandahar, do the crying parents make a sound?
is defined.
The sections that allow freedom of speech, assembly and the right to petition the government were suspended when?
Hasa Diga Eebowai
There are other sections to the US Constitution other than the amendments, heck... the name "amendment" should have given you quite the hint about that fact.
What exactly is/was your point now? So many tangential BS responses from your part that I sort of lost track of what your point was supposed to be.
you forgot what you yourself wrote. For some reason you believe that the president has some constitutional right to tell various groups or individuals to shut up. I'm still waiting for your citation from the constitution to support that rather bizarre assertion. As regards the red herring comment, you do recall interjecting that completely irrelevant comment about health care reform into the rather more interesting exchange that was going on don't you? That was more of a red whale.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
I don't disagree with what you say but judge the results.
DID he tell every single corporate donor to 'pound salt'?
Did he tell ANY corporate donor to 'pound salt'.
American politics is about manipulation and manufacturing consent.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
But as an inveterate cynic I would like to see some compelling evidence that he has caved to those corporate interests. Saving the banking system was not optional even though it also saved the venal rats who profited from it. Nor was saving GM and Chrysler. I see no evidence that he has become a corporate tool. I've seen the video Alice and despite disagreeing occasionally with Chomsky I'm quite the fan. He is an original thinker and I admire that.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
He has not 'saved' the banking system, he has saved the bankers.
It is the same insolvent system and the same vastly overpaid bankers.
Economist heavy weights such as William K Black, James Galbraith, Michael Hudson and Joseph Stiglitz have used the word fraud to describe the meltdown. Massive fraud, yet we have no Pecora style investigation.
Between the Treasury and the Fed we have a commitment of $12.8 trillion, having spent $4.8 trillion.
As for GM, he has saved the Bankers interests, but not the interest of the country or the people.
You can search my previous comments for copious links all of these matters.
We also have a Secretary of State that threatened to incinerate Iran.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
To a certain extent you are right Alice they could have organized full investigation and taken the time to find as many culprits as you'd like. And while they were doing it virtually every small, medium and large corporation would have ground to a halt. As criminally stupid as many of these de-regulatory policies were they made much of what was done perfectly legal. I would beg to differ on GM and Chrysler. The workers who make those cars will be going back to work. I don't see that the bankers have any significant ownership or control anymore.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
You have been listening to Obama who says what the FS sector did was not illegal.
That is the greatest disservice he can do.
Fraud and misrepresentation is illegal.
The rating agencies are being sued on that account right now.
The solvency issue of the banks has not been solved. Moving fraudulent 'toxic assets' off their balance sheet and onto the taxpayers' balance sheet is the program.
As far as GM's bankruptcy, the bankers go to the front of the line of creditors because they wrote the bankruptcy law.
The Union's pension funds are given equity in lieu of their promised pension obligations. This is a swindle.
You must do constant research to keep up with this stuff or you will end believing what Obama says and not know what has actually happened.
Again, I have copious links in previous comments.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
thinking for myself. Fraud and misrepresentation are certainly illegal and no one is stopping any of those cases from being pursued.. The rating agencies all deserved to be sued and will be. The solvency of the banks has been restored. It is the solvency of the US government that is in some doubt now. You could rewrite the bankruptcy laws any way you like but if secured creditors are not secured then they won't lend money. End of story for the business that needs the loan. Finally, who should pay those pension obligations? If as has been suggested they were all allowed to go broke the pensioners would receive nothing. What we're looking at is the best that could be done given a very bad situation.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
The ratings agencies are being sued in civil action. They should be investigated as to criminal action.
The loan originators, the intermediaries and the big banks all should be investigated for criminality.
See my links here and read the excerpt if not the complete interview with James Galbraith.
Unfortunately, as far as civil action goes the only entity which the law permits action against is the loan originators.
Unraveling the complex structured financial instruments worth hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars each is a daunting task. As far as civil action you are left with small potatoes.
Here are some other links. Study Robert Weisman's report 'Sold Out'. It is over 200 pages but it is well worth it. It is a tome to Crony Capitalism.
Also good is T2 Partners guided tour from 12/18/08 here and why there is more pain to come (it is a large pdf). And from 5/30/09 here
The solvency of the banks has NOT been restored. The liquidity of the banks has been increased. The continue to have on and off balance sheet CDOs which are fraught with defaulted loans. This is the issue of FASB and mark to market.
Stiglitz: Geithner's Plan is Just Robbery here original here
They have marked losses of one trillion. Roubini says they have losses of $3.6 trillion. The IMF says it is $4.1 trillion.
See my comment here especially the link to Henry Blodget (it takes a thief) on Obama's speech on the banks.
Also Stiglitz in Vanity Fair here, a major important piece.
Also Simon Johnson, A Quiet Coup here.
Simon Johnson was the chief economist for the IMF, he knows about bankrupt countries and that is where we are headed.
I would definitely like to rewrite the bankruptcy law of 2005. Certainly as it applies to individuals. According to that law now credit card debt must be paid while mortgages go into foreclosure, exactly the reverse of the previous law. In other words unsecured debt (credit cards) becomes secured by the bankruptcy court and the assets of secured debt (the individual's homes) are seized.
Another great feature of that law for corporations, if you are a fat cat, is that credit default swap holders go directly to the front of the line of creditors and are not stayed at all.
In bankruptcy the pensions, if they could not be paid, would ordinarily go to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., of the US government. Instead they are being handed dubious equity in the corporation.
I have provided a number of links, many hundreds of pages. Study them, I have.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
We should have let the banks FAIL and allowed the economy to correct itself. They should have gotten NO BAILOUT!!!:
http://ampedstatus.com/peter-schiff-the-ameri...
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
that his views did not prevail as I am that Ron Paul did not become president. And that's saying a lot. Krugman's views are more in keeping with my own.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
I have very little use for Peter Schiff at all.
He is another Fat Cat.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
We should have let the banks FAIL and allowed the economy to correct itself. They should have gotten NO BAILOUT!!!:
http://ampedstatus.com/peter-schiff-the-ameri...
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
We should have let the banks FAIL and allowed the economy to correct itself. They should have gotten NO BAILOUT!!!:
http://ampedstatus.com/peter-schiff-the-ameri...
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
This is the site where I found that quote and it's interesting to scroll down to see the pie showing where his money came from.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
snark that was a good pie . Now lets watch these people eat crow pie.
Did you just propose marriage to me and then say it was a snark? And I had such big plans for our future together. I had a freshly baked crow pie to serve to our guests at our wedding too.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Better than hair pie?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Don't you mean hare pie?
Study the symptoms not the virus...
.
!
I wrote this and I don't remember what I was alluding to. Go Alice! Great argument. I am awed.
that the proof is in the pudding is valid, IMHO. We can never know the intentions of donors nor the weight those donations carry in a politician's decision process. But we can look at the results and whether there's been significant change in policy (i.e. for/against corporations).
Exactly.
...besides, we live in a country where roughly 1/3 of the people would like to see us living under a theocracy too. I think we have quite a bit in common with our Iranian brothers and sisters...taking to the streets to take back a stolen election unfortunately isn't one them.
We support our Iranian pro-democracy brothers and sisters! Fight! Fight! Fight for democracy! Do what we should have done in 2000.
To the Iranian people, your courage is applauded and the world is cheering you on! Right on... power to the people!!!! (Reminds me of the good ol' days of the late 60s and early 70s... how did we get so complacent?!)
You became consumers! You settled! You got mortgages!
YOU BECAME HELOTS!!
If only we could get Americans to do this! Health Care NOW!
Equal Rights NOW! Stop the war NOW!! Legal pot NOW!!
We didn't have millions, but we did have hundreds of thousands in the streets. And it still didn't mean a thing.
Look at the cases of Roxana Saberi and Sami al-Haj to see which country is the most corrupt.
Saberi was given a rigged trial, then after protests a real one and set free after 4 months in Iranian prison.
Al-Haj was was never prosecuted at Guantanamo so the U.S did not make public its full allegations against him while he was imprisoned for 6 years.
Both were journalists.
Hopefully humanity will one day learn to be humane.
our police have more and better weapons and will use them.
Snore.
No administration wants to open fire on hundreds of thousands protesting in Washington. It's an ugly sight to show America and the world: it's too revealing of the actual power structure and non-democracy. The problem is, you can't get hundreds of thousands to put down their cell phones for 5 minutes.
I see "the fear" has got you.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
you can't go around this forum blowing a fuse when someone says something overly negative of Conservatives. And yet chastise liberals for not being "aggressive" enough.
Is that for me? If it is, I don't understand it.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
He is notoriously "concerned" for the feelings of the republican f*ck up d'jour, and is always making the case for incremental change and all sort of status quo-friendly suggestions.
I was frankly surprised by his call to action...
or health care. Or maybe it's a good thing. For some, anyway.
I feel panic just looking at those crowds because I can't handle being among that many people. Also I will freely admit that the idea of a cop knocking me over the head with a stick scares the hell out of me. I guess I just wasn't cut out for public demonstrations, but I sure as hell support and admire what these people are doing.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Me too. thanks for having the guts to say you don't like crowds. ;) I can't even handle a rock concert. But I admire this crowd's courage as well. We think we have the right to assemble and carry on, but these folks know that they DON'T and are demonstrating any way. That's sheer guts.
Regardless whether the official results of the Iranian election were valid, the last two weeks of the campaign showed the opposition their own strength.
The "morality police" were called off the streets. Women could go into pubic without wearing the habib. Couples could touch in public. I don't know how many other usually prohibited activities were allowed - those are the only two I heard announced in one of the net broadcasts.
The result was stunning - literally millions enjoying the taste of freedom.
The genii is out of the bottle. The urban Iranians want to be free.
Here are two reputable sources that say the official outcome of the Iranian election was likely correct - Ahmadinejab won. But I repeat my point - regardless who actually won, the Urban Iranians have tasted freedom and want more.
Washington Post: The Iranian People Speak
Pierre Tristam: Dashing Fabricated Hopes: The Meaning of Ahmadinejad's Victory
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
Your point is excellent. This "taste" of freedom will be remembered and hopefully increase the demand for reform.
Hopefully humanity will one day learn to be humane.
I said: "I don't know how many other usually prohibited activities were allowed - those are the only two I heard announced in one of the net broadcasts."
I'm gonna bet all the loud music and dancing in the streets were also among the previously prohibited activities - there was plenty of both during the last couple of weeks.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
Then they lost it, now they want it back. Separation of church and state. They should try it. Did you see the video of the Republican Guard beating a guy, and when they tried to drag him off, the crowd came forward, grabbed him, and threw what appeared to be rocks at the Guard. Beautiful.
err .. Iran was a functioning democracy before the US & UK installed the Shah in 1953.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
Al Jazeera: One shot dead at banned Iran rally - 15 Jun 09
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
Amazing video.
From Iranian Opposition Leader Mousavi's YouTube Channel:
Riot police caught by crowd - Protests in Tehran after election
14/06/09 - Riot after iranian election - Police run away from crowd
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
I was in the Berkely riots , was even blasted in the face by the NG point blank with tear gas . Being in a crowd of 50,000 + is very scary indeed , we did end the war that was good .
Power to the Iranian people , maybe some day they will say the same thing to us .
every time you throw a little mud , you lose a little ground .
I was a student at Berkeley in the late 60's .. couldn't go to classes without being part of a riot .. but you already know that!
I took a course in the American Revolution to satisfy the Civics Requirement .. heard all the rhetoric of the Revolution in the classroom then walked out into the plaza and watched it all being acted out ..
Reading the Federalists Papers in the library when the cops gassed the library .. talk about surreslistic juxtapostions!
And I was eating in the ooutdoor plaza in the Student Union when the Army Captain stood on the roof with a bullhorn and announced that anyone in the area in 5 minutes would be treated as a hostile combatant. Then they brought in the Army helicopter and gassed those who hadnt heard the warning. Cops wearing gas masks and no ID tags then beat them.
Ah Yes ! The smell of tear gas .. the roar of the crowd ..
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
I remember that day , you may of even see me , I had long hair
every time you throw a little mud , you lose a little ground .
Reading the Federalists Papers in the library when the cops gassed the library .. talk about surreslistic juxtapostions!
__________________________________________________________
It's from all the free Fritos Pie the cafeteria ladies give them.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Do you know where Frito's headquarters are located. :-O
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Yup...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
To me Frito's Pie is dinner followed by entertainment.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
My life long friend (and sailing buddy) was a temp at the philosophy library in the 60,s and 70,s ( thats where he sold semi adult refreshments ) at Berkeley . Let the good times roll or is that roll for the good times , damn i forget , so i must of been there .
every time you throw a little mud , you lose a little ground .
Please please please please please please please please please please please please please please let there be a money connection between the neocons and Ahmadinejad please please please please please please please please please please please please please please...
Divine Right of Kings (1600's); Divine Right of Corporations (2011)
And here I thought the headline for the thread said Soylent Green.
Hmmm...I must be ready for dinner.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Tuesday is Soylent Green day!
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
1. go into windows media player
* This also works in Quicktime if you have Flip4Mac
2. select file, then open URL
3. type or paste this in, mms://wms.edgecastcdn.net/200216/ipresstv
This allows you to watch Press TV, the english language state media. They do a news update every 30 minutes and they've been reporting on the demonstration. but they haven't been covering it round the clock.
Let me just tell you guys as a person sending this comment from Tehran that American policies are what have boldened people like Ahmadinejad here. As someone who was at the scene where 7 Iranians were gunned down in front of my eyes trust me, Moosavi and Ahmadinejad are veryyyy different for us, so plz support us Moosavi supporters so maybe finally we can have some useful dialog with you guys.
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