Matthew Hoh: There is No Winning in Afghanistan

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Fareed Zakaria talks to former Foreign Service officer Matthew Hoh who recently resigned as a Political Officer in Afghanistan. You can watch the entire interview here.

ZAKARIA: Matthew Hoh is the young Foreign Service officer who resigned this week from his post in Afghanistan. He joins me now.

Matthew, I'm going to just start by reading a bit from your resignation letter. You say, "I fail to see the worth or value in continued U.S. casualties or expenditures of resources in support of the Afghan government in what is truly a 35-year-old civil war."

And then you go on to say, "Thousands of our men and women have returned home with physical and mental wounds. The dead return only in bodily form to be received by families who must be reassured that their dead have been sacrificed for a purpose worthy of such futures lost, love vanished and promised dreams unkept. I have lost confidence such assurances can any more be made. As such, I submit my resignation."

These are very strong words.

Give us some sense of what this insurgency that we are fighting looks like. What did you think people were fighting U.S. troops for?

MATTHEW HOH, FORMER MARINE CAPTAIN AND U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: The first place where I really had -- where this was codified for me and where I started to understand what we were doing and how we were involved -- the Korengal Valley, which I'm sure a lot of your viewers are familiar with. It's been on the cover of TIME Magazine. The "New York Times" refers to it as the valley of death. Off the top of my head, unfortunately, I can't remember how many American soldiers we have lost there, but it's probably 30 or 40.

This is a valley, I don't know, 15, 20 kilometers long. There's only 10,000 people in it. They speak their own language. They speak Korengali. In the year 2009 we have a valley with people who speak their own language. Their only trade is the timber trade. And when they move their timber, they don't even leave their valley. Most of the time, I believe, they just take it to the Mazar Valley, and a middleman picks it up and brings it to Pakistan for them.

We show up. We enter their valley. We occupy the richest man's timber mill. And then we bring in Afghan army and Afghan police, who aren't from there.

And then what do we do? Then we have the Afghan police and Afghan army. They say to the Korengalis, they say, "These mountains here that your families have been cutting trees down, sustaining yourselves for hundreds of years, you don't own them. The central government does. And you have to pay tax on that."

I'm not sure how many people anywhere else in the world wouldn't take up arms against something like that.

And so, and for every Korengal we're in, like I said before, there's a hundred we're not. And there's like -- and that would happen in those other valleys, the same thing, too, in the south. You'll go to, like, these remote FOBs, and you'll ask the commander of the FOB, who's a...

ZAKARIA: FOB means?

HOH: I'm sorry, a forward-operating base. And these are bases of maybe a total of 40 Americans led by, just by a 23-year-old lieutenant. And really, I can't say enough good things about those young men. And I really wish there was more media coverage about how hard their lives were and how difficult the fight is for them. They really are some of the best warriors the American Army has ever had.

But you ask them, "How many local Taliban groups are there around here? How many local enemy groups are there around here?"

And they'll say, "Five or six within a five-kilometer radius."

"Well, do they work together with each other?"

"No, they don't. They stay in their own areas."

This is a very localized population, a population that's really keen on its surrounding community.

The province I was in, Zabul province -- 300,000 people in about 1,500 villages. Each village is roughly about 100 to 500 people. And then you have some urban areas along the highway.

And so, it's a very localized problem.

ZAKARIA: I know that, after you made your objections clear, there was a scurry of activity to try and get you to stay. You had conversations with people like Richard Holbrooke.

Why was Holbrooke not able to convince you to stay? HOH: I accepted his offer for about a week. And then I realized that, if I believed in this mission, if I believed that...

ZAKARIA: What was the offer?

HOH: The offer was to join his staff and be put in a position where I could continue to write and try and influence policymakers from within the administration.

Two things. One, if I believed in the mission, if I believed it was worth our guys dying for, if I believed that 60,000 troops in Afghanistan would defeat al Qaeda somehow -- which it won't -- I would have stayed in Zabul Province, which I've told everybody was the second-best job I ever had in my life.

However, the other part of it, too, was I realized that the administration was going to make a decision shortly, and then I would be stuck. And if I don't believe in it, if I don't think this cause is right, if I don't believe it's justified, then there's no reason to take that position.

ZAKARIA: Were you surprised by the strong reaction to your resignation?

HOH: It's been a bit overwhelming. It's been a bit overwhelming.

My thoughts were this. I would publish the letter. And I figured I would get one or two days of attention, and then it would fade away. And I was fine with that.

However, I've received such an outpouring and a flood of e-mails, and particularly from two communities that have convinced me to stay in this and be a part of the debate as long as possible until it doesn't make sense any more. And those two communities -- one was Afghan-Americans.

I've had a lot of Afghan-Americans contact me and say, "Matt, you get it. You understand. Yes, there is a civil war going on. You understand this conflict (ph). You understand how Afghan society works. You understand this split within the Pashtuns. You understand valleyism, or whatever you want to call it." And that has encouraged me quite a bit.

And the second one is active duty military. I have received many, many e-mails from active duty military and some guys who have just separated from service. Some are here in the States.

I've gotten many e-mails from guys in Afghanistan -- some are people I know, but a lot are people I do not know -- men and women who are saying, "Matt, thanks for doing this. Keep it up. We don't know why we're here. We're not sure why we're taking these casualties. We don't know what it's accomplishing."

ZAKARIA: Do you think -- the top military brass have all endorsed General McChrystal's report and request. Do you think that down on the ground there is a very different feeling?

HOH: Oh, yes. Yes, there is. I think on the ground -- and the perspective is that, what is the strategic value of what we're doing here. Why are we doing this? What are we getting out of it?

It's not going to defeat al Qaeda. It's not going to -- if you take our two goals as being the defeat of al Qaeda, and then, because of its nuclear weapons and because of the relationship with India, the stabilization of the government in Islamabad, 60,000 troops taking 50, 60 dead a month in this country, and how many wounded and killing how many Afghans, as well, it doesn't accomplish either of those goals.

ZAKARIA: Why doesn't it defeat al Qaeda?

HOH: My belief is that, after 2001, al Qaeda evolved. They became, as I like to say, an ideological cloud. It exists on the Internet. They don't need a safe haven in Afghanistan. They've got safe havens in five, six, seven other countries.

ZAKARIA: Most importantly, Pakistan.

HOH: Most importantly, Pakistan.

And they recruit worldwide. The attacks over the last bunch of years, to include our own attacks on 9/11, were conducted by non- Afghans, non-Pakistanis. They were trained and prepared and planned for outside of the region, for the most part. Everyone knows that the flight training took place here in the United States.

This is an organization that is very ephemeral. It doesn't really exist. Occupying a country is not going to defeat them. It's the proverbial fly versus the sledge hammer.

And furthermore, if we keep 60,000 troops -- well, let's look at it this way. If there is 20 or 30 million people in the Pashtun belt of Afghanistan and Pakistan, how many recruits does al Qaeda get from there a year? We don't know, but it's probably in the hundreds, at the most, by far. It's probably not even that many.

Well, in a population of 20 or 30 million, how are you going to keep 100 people from being disaffected and joining some fringe group? That's impossible.

Furthermore, occupying a location only provides justification and only lends credence to the goals of that organization. It only inspires young Muslim men to want to defend their culture against an occupying army, which is what we are.

ZAKARIA: And we will be back with Matthew Hoh in a minute.



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56 comments

Afghanistan is a centuries-old graveyard for foreign invaders. Only the US would have the hubris to think that it will be any different for us.

But of course that is not what they are thinking. It is about gas and oil from the Caucasus and profits for the military industrial complex. The oil corps need a win or a long occupation, the MIC loves the quagmire.

but have you checked a world map to see where Afghanistan is relatively to the Caucasus? Why on heaven's shake would you build a pipeline that goes not only through the opposite direction, but through one of the most rugged and elevated areas on earth?

Had the maps and papers for the designs for the oil they wanted and the pipelines in the middleeast and Afghanistan was along with other areas where to be used..

http://prorev.com/2009/08/why-is-afghanistan-...

Afghanistan is adjacent to Middle Eastern countries that are rich in oil and natural gas. And though Afghanistan may have little petroleum itself, it borders both Iran and Turkmenistan, countries with the second and third largest natural gas reserves in the world. (Russia is first.)

Herion is to Afghanistan

Like Afghanistan, Columbia may have other strategic values - but you can't ignore the power of the cocaine trade there anymore than you can discount the herion trade in Afghanistan.

It makes a difference. The question is; how much influence does the drug trade have on this war? As much as cocaine had during Iran-Contra?

Colombia may well have a cocaine problem. Columbia (South Carolina) has cocaine, plus political problems as well.

I've been to the latter--com si, com sa... I'd love to visit the former someday...

so?

Again, where would those pipelines go? And why on f*ck's sake would anyone take such an detour through one of the most rugged and unsecured areas in the world?

It's no coincidence they were planned to run along the axis of where Americans bases now stand in Afghanistan. So presently U.S. bases are within quick striking distance of where the proposed pipeline will run. And this was proposed before September 11th, even before the Taliban was welcomed to the White House in early 2001

Clinton refused to do business with the Taliban even though Poppy Bush and Carlyle were BBQing with the Taliban at the same time trying to drum up some business.
Something had to change to enable Poppy Bush and pals to make some real money in Afghanistan. One stolen election and a false flag op later .. walla... were in the money... la la la la

)O(

Apparently Hamid Karzai was an advisor to an oil corporation called Unocal.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/...

The $pirit of '76

)O(

Link no workee, but it's to prison planet and on how PNAC has changed it's name to Foreign Policy Initiative (FPI), headed by krystolmeth, with essentially the same ambitions of making America a "benevolent hegemony," and presently one of the big pushers of a "surge" into Afghanistan.

Thats the way it works ysbadden. All they have to do is change the name of the entity and all is forgotten and forgiven. PNAC becomes FPi... Diebold becomes Premier Elections Systems.. Blackwater becomes XE or whatever they call thmeselves these days. Its like magic....sad part is they pull the wool over 50% of Americans eyes when they do it.

western hemisphere institute for security cooperation

so if obama follows pnac's wishes
what does that mean?

It is about gas and oil from the Caucasus Central Asia ..

Thank you!

Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan even more precisely.

which are in the Caucasus ...
http://mapsof.net/uploads/static-maps/the_cau...

Unocal Advisor Named Representative to Afghanistan
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/MAR201B...

Unocal and the Afghanistan pipeline
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHI203A...

Almost everything you see about Afghanistan is a cover for the fact that the actual motive is the pipeline they wish to build over Afghanistan to bring out Uzbek and Turkmen natural gas which together is valued at up to $10 trillion, which they want to bring over Afghanistan and down to the Arabian Sea to make it available for export.

And we are living in a world where people, a small number of people, with incredible political clout and huge amounts of money, are prepared to see millions die for their personal economic gain and where, even worse, most people in bureaucracies are prepared to go along with it for their own much smaller economic gain, all within this psychological mirage which is so much of the war on terror.

From http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/102409b.html

I thought they wanted it because they have no other warm water ports.

Although, a couple more years and the Arctic won't be freezing over anyway.....

..was where osama bin laden was and w and his band of criminals screwed that pooch. If he's not there and we're not going to burn all the f-ing opium poppy crops, I just don't see the point of being there any longer.
w's and his cronies must have stock in Heroin or are somehow making a buck on the heroin epidemic as they will harvest the largest opium crop ever. way to go w!

)O(

Apparently there's a trade pact between Turkemenistan, Azerbaijan and Russia:

http://www.einnews.com/turkmenistan/newsfeed-...

Azerbaijan was notable for having Ilham Aliyev who attempted to wipe the the Nagorno Karabakh, leading Clenis to put them on the Do Not Deal With List. Within days of taking office chainey took them off the list unilaterally to gain access to the Caspian Sea oil.

Now Azerbaijan shares a border with Armenia, Russia and Iran.

Russia and Iran are part of what so concerned PNAC (FPI),in terms of political hegemony.

So eventually US forces may be drawn to fighting in Azerbaijan and Armenia to effect krystolmeth's dream of American dictatorship probably not just of the Caucasus, but the entire Near East, with Israel exercising something similar over the Middle East, and presumably Japan over the Far East.

)O(

I would say Obama needs to strike and strike now

But not on Aghanistan

But in pursuing any War Crime charges against these players in Iraq, because they're trying to light a regional powder-keg, that will spread along the gunpowder trail to those western trade partners, and could result in a World War.

To be honest, I don't know much about Afghanistan, but this guy seemed to make a lot of sense to a layman like me.

quite a refreshing take on afghanistan. not some think tank, talking head pundit, or chatterbox; but someone who has lived there and able to translate a foreign situation successfully. why can't there be more of this in the news?

Great interview.

[Comment Deleted By Administration For Violation Of Terms Of Service]

... at first, I wasn't against the war in Afghanistan. Iraq was one thing, where we had absolutely no business being in there, but our best shot at Bin Laden was in the Afghanistan-Pakistan region. After he and his friends were taken down, that's when I'd be calling for withdrawal.

Then we hear about Karzai rigging the elections, the Taliban bribing Pakistani officials to leave them alone, and how Al-Qaeda is in no condition to do anything large, as well as how they'll never get as lucky as they did on 9/11. It's not like the global community is going to be ignoring global terrorism; they're going to be hunted down no matter what happens. And the Taliban? This is a problem the Afghani people will have to solve on their own; if the rigged election tells us anything it's that we can't force democracy or Western philosophy down their throats.

Now we have this tying of Afghanistan to Vietnam. I'm not going to beat a dead horse by saying Afghanistan is a foreign invader's graveyard, but I am going to say that the image of a second Vietnam is much more horrifying. That's when I thought to myself "Nah, not worth it. Bring our boys home."

?

No problems there.

[Comment Deleted By Administration For Violation Of Terms Of Service]

propaganda

As Bill Moyers noted the other day, we need to institute the draft again to make the reality of this war hit home.

[Comment Deleted By Administration For Violation Of Terms Of Service]

A draft would help bring this bullshit to a fast end. So far...its been mostly "other peoples kids " going off to fight the bullshit wars. Chimpy Mc Monkeyass and Rummy the Dummy planned it that way. They just used up the Guard, like a three dollar whore, with numerous deployments to avoid the in your face publicity a draft would bring. A draft would also get some folks off their asses and make them take notice and hit the streets like the 60s. 1-2-3-4 we wont fight no oil wars....5-6-7-8- dying for lies aint so fucking great....

they will bleed america slow in lives and treasure

that is how they can win

the Vietnamese bleed america fast in lives

americans are imperialists and until they come to that level of thinking there will continue to be wars for profits

iraq and afghan will cost americans their wealth along with Reagan economics

the middle class is history in america

while the middle class slept and worshiped at the altar of capitalism they lost their wealth

in a republic the politicians are a refection of the voters

best kept secret in america

sleep on americans the world bully is coming to its knees.

afghan brought the soviet union to its knees now americans

while the wars for profits folks smile all the way to the bank.

Ok, that's a silly question. If WE could end this, we would have. The problem is THEY won't end this. Why is the government so obsessed with murder and death?

i recommend this video:

http://rethinkafghanistan.com/

"Why is the government so obsessed with murder and death?"

it is called wars for profits

)O(

Oh I think there can be winning in Afghanistan

Just not permanently.

winning for the Afghanistans. They will probably end up owning the pipelines.

.

Hey , even i thought Afghanistan was a good idea at one time. That was before i became more aware of the incident that sent us there in the first place. Now i think Afghanistan is a crock of shit too and not worth a drop of Canadian or American blood. Karzai is as crooked as some US Republicans. The heroin is flowing out in record numbers ( so much for that other bullshit war on drugs ) and it appears to be a bottomless pit of despair ala Nam. America is in the death grips of the greedy and the MIC. They dont care how many of your kids precious lives they fucking waste to fill their wallets. Its beyond disgusting.Be a cold day in hell before i let my son go off and die thanklessly for some greedy assed traitors bottom line.

3p:

I knew when the bombs started dropping it was a bad idea.

It was the Saudis that attacked us that day.

:p

I thought our drones would have taken care of things by now.

Send more drones!

... will block out the sun!

we did as much as we could even though big boss bush had other objectives in iraq. spending more resources and time is what i would consider losing.

Everyone posting on this matter does not have a clue when comparing their opinion to this individual. He was there. He breathed it and he tasted it. All you have you say is WOW.

which doesn't make me feel better about the rest of america who are keeping us embroiled over there because of their opinions. we need more guys like this making the rounds on the news. i hope you watched the other videos. how refreshing.
wow!

it is very decentralized. There is no head to cut off. You can cut a sponge up and it doesn't die. Every little piece is still alive.

I'm just sitting here trying to absorb your analogy.

The brain is saturated after soaking up all the possiblities

If he said "Can't win because..." then the statement makes so much more sense.

"To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the SUPREME INTERNATIONAL CRIME differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."
-- Justice Robert H. Jackson, Nuremburg Trials 1946.

plug in vietnam, iraq, and afghan and we have a country that has created three wars of aggression.

and americans sing the song how proud they are to be an american

even the germans sang how proud they were to be german in 1939

a patroit must often protect its country against its gov

wake up americans your gov politicans no longer represent you or me.

corp fascism has come to america

while americans slept

Corporations never sleep, never get sick, and never die of natural causes. Their only function is to grow and make money. Humans haven't got a chance. They can't compete. Once the world is dominated by corporations there is no solution except to redefine corporation.

There is no other way for humans to use corporations and not end up being used by these corporations.

gotta change it

but mr. hoh seems to be either totally unaware of, or simply chooses to ignore, the past 10,000 years of human history:

We show up. We enter their valley. We occupy the richest man's timber mill. And then we bring in Afghan army and Afghan police, who aren't from there.

And then what do we do? Then we have the Afghan police and Afghan army. They say to the Korengalis, they say, "These mountains here that your families have been cutting trees down, sustaining yourselves for hundreds of years, you don't own them. The central government does. And you have to pay tax on that."

I'm not sure how many people anywhere else in the world wouldn't take up arms against something like that.

this kind of thing happened all the time, pretty much all over the populated world: some king or warlord would show up, tell the local populace to either pay taxes or die. or, they'd just enslave the entire local population, and take everything they owned. nothing particularly new or unique about that.

in many cases, it was to the advantage of the locals to pay the tribute; they were given protection from other's depradations in return, possibly had their lives improved through better technology (see: the romans), better transportation of their goods, etc.

now, you can argue all day long whether it's right or not, but to totally ignore the normalcy of the situation tends to reduce the credibility of the rest of your position.

I think Hoh really put to rest the whole "gotta fight 'em over there so they don't come here" mentality with his last few comments.

OOT, has anyone ever heard the word "pipeline" said in relation to Afghanistan from the Mainstream Media?

I am sure Obama is listening to people like this on the other side of the debate. For all these idiots out there saying Obama is "dithering" they are completely wrong. They obviously have no idea what is going on in Afghanistan and have no strategic foresite. The military will never win this war. The military is likely making things worse. Even these UMV attacks in Pakistan are likely doing more harm than good.

56 comments

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