This Week Pundits Whitewash Torture
By Heather Tuesday Apr 21, 2009 6:00pm
The panel on This Week wasn't much better than the one on Fox News Sunday with their whitewashing of torture and whether there should be investigations. The worst of them being George Will and Peggy Noonan. When asked about whether there will be prosecutions for those that devised the policies on torture George Will thought the Obama administration was striking the right "balance".
Will: Yes. His balance was right. Whether Congress will stick to it or not, the New York Times and others of that faction are inciting Congress have hearings on this and perhaps they will. Perhaps they should. The problem with transparency is it's transparent for the terrorists as well and as you had a clip on here of former Secretary of Homeland Security Chertoff saying, the bad guys train to resist what they know we can use and they are helped by when they are captured knowing what we cannot use. So this has a cost.
No George. They already knew that we were waterboarding. Your argument is bunk. You and Brit Hume really need to get with the program here. Next on the list is Cokie Roberts who is just oh so glad that those CIA tapes were destroyed.
Roberts: That's certainly true but we don't have, give them ammunition, and you know whoever at the CIA destroyed the tapes of the waterboarding, it was the wrong thing to do but I'm really glad they did it because I would hate to have those tapes out on the Internet and people uh, being using those because I think they would be wonderful recruiting tools for terrorists and the truth is we do wonderful work all around the world, this country, people in this country, organizations in this country, the US government get no credit for it, partly because of these kinds of techniques and just getting them out of there I think is just tremendously helpful.
So Cokie, do you really think that the terrorists don't know what went on because those tapes aren't there to watch? Do you really think this was not already a recruiting tool without the tapes? I fail to follow your logic here. The only thing not having the tapes out there assures is that the people who were in them are never held accountable for what they did.
Then we have Sam Donaldson who throws out the whole Nuremberg trials argument in one fell swoop by giving the CIA agents a pass who tortured prisoners.
Donaldson: As to prosecutions, I agree that people that thought they were following "the law" as outlined, they say well, following orders no excuse. This is not Nazi Germany. This is not that type of thing. They should not be held (crosstalk)..but the people who devised these methods, devised these memos, if in fact they knew that they were just trying to find cover. Just trying to find a way to get around American values and American law and the American Constitution, I think they should be held responsible. I think they should be brought in and if President Obama wants to pardon them as one President pardoned a former President, then let him do so. But they should be held accountable in a court of law.
So Sam, your idea of accountability is to pardon someone who broke the law after a court finds them guilty? That's one hell of a high standard you just set there. Kind of like the one we had for the Iran contra thugs, or Nixon. And we all know how much good that did for the country with giving us the Bush gang of thugs that should have been in jail instead of making policy and leading us into that debacle in Iraq.
Then we have Peggy Noonan who is oh so swept up in her own importance with her demeanor in this response. I'm sure it must be nice to be one of those very, very serious Villagers that should have us mere mortals out there hanging from every word that comes from her lips.
Noonan: Oh I have reservations about all this. It's hard for me to look at a great nation issuing these documents and sending them out to the world and thinking oh much good will come of that. Sometimes in life you wanna' just keep walkin'. History has changed. It does change. We have a new administration, a new way. Sometimes I think just keep walkin'. Don't always be issuing papers and reports.
She adds that "some of life has to be mysterious". Really? Somehow I find nothing "mysterious" about torturing people. We either did it or we didn't, and you hold someone accountable or you don't. No mystery there.
This was a much more "civil" debate than the one that happened on Fox News, but in so many ways, it was worse. These are people who pretend to be in the middle of our political discourse and aren't as openly partisan as Fox but they're touting the same sorry talking points. They all had a good chuckle at the end of the segment about whether there will be Congressional hearings to investigate the torture. I'm so glad that served as a source of amusement for them. Heaven forbid we could take a small matter like Congressional oversight for war crimes seriously. I would guess if those hearings are ever followed up by some prosecutions, they'll quit laughing. We can only hope that happens instead of the Bush protection racket we had at the DOJ for the last eight years. I'm not holding my breath, but we'll see.
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Excuse me, but I believe the NYT is inciting Congress to obey the law. There was a time when that's what the U.S what's supposed to be about, a country that obeys the rule of law, and expects it's leaders to do the same.
And guess what, Miss Peggy?? We won't be a great nation for very long if we continue to go down the road laid out by the Bush cabal, and if we don't correct this egregious error by holding the goons who provided legal cover and the leaders who knew good and well they were in violation of our Constitution and international law.
Ahh it`s Piggy-who has the capacity to drain the life and energy out of most any good idea…………..
What comes to mind is the " pink elephant in the middle of the room and no one wants to talk about it,” still relevant in these days when people deny torture or try and justified it as in the past -without making anyone accountable!
Calling it the great mystery- yeah mmmkay
I knew she was nuts , but I didn't realize how far out of touch with reality she was. ....
My reality is not your reality. ...
Did you write this stupidity for Reagan-just wondering...
"You can't help those who simply will not be helped. One problem that we've had, even in the best of times, is people who are sleeping on the grates, the homeless who are homeless, you might say, by choice." -- President Reagan
Peggy sure is a piece of work. What a douchebag.
My daughter has always been all agog about Noonan and what a 'great speech writer she is' type thing. I was never than impressed by the bimbo (Noonan) anyway, and lost all respect for her after reading her interview with Pickles and Georgie in lat 2001 for LADIES HOME JOURNAL. Talk about a 'piece of work'.
Like in trying to keep the rest of the 'interview' (more like a rah-rah sisboombah show-time session when she asked about how (paraphrasing) 'the worst day became a rather funny day' in response to Georgie and Pickled giggling about how they must have looked being raced to the bunker the night of 9/11 in their jammies when there was (supposed to be - even after everything was grounded) a small plane circling DC.
I still can't listen to the woman.
...We get no credit for anything good we do because of a few bad apples who torture people. It's so unfair. I think I'm gonna cry. As always, the biggest victim is the US. Life is so unfair.
..to learn that Donaldson, Cokie and the lot of them are full of shit. this is a BIG surprise.
over the last two days we have seen new "revelations" about Democrats, and an incredible amount of downplay coming out of the Rethugs. I think they are starting to sense the shift in the wind, and are desperately seeking to stave off prosecution by reminding Dems that their hands are not that clean....
BTW Bob Graham was the governor of Florida for much of my youth (got to shake his hand when I attended Boys State). I just wanted to point out that he was the ONLY person who had a problem with our torture policy.
Be prepared people, some really big Dems are going to get caught up in this (Pelosi for one). To be honest, at the end of the day I count rethugs getting more seats than dems out of this mess.....
Fuck Bush, and Cheney --- may they rot in hell for what they have done.
Yup....I don't feel sorry for the stupids who signed off on torture 'to keep the peace' as it were....they NEED to get caught up in it. I remember when Bob Graham came out about something about 9/11 that wasn't supposed to be mentioned...(sorry, that was like six years ago, and I don't have my notes in front of me)...my sister mentioned "he's a dead man". So far, he's been lucky, because he was completely drowned out and ignored.
1. If you are Pundit, you must experience the interrogative technique and be televised while it is happening, before they can say it is acceptable.
2. If the Pundit advocates ignoring a crime, they must have it done to them.
Does this seem fair?
Waterboard Peggy Noonan and Will. If you can get buckets of water big enough to fill those gaping yaps.
if you were a victim of a crime, would you tell the cops not to investigate and then say "sometimes, you just have to walk away"?
stupid, wingnut slag
crimes in the name of our country were committed
the guilty must be punished
bush, cheney, rummy and fredo should be hung from the highest yardarm
I might have thrown a shoe thru the TV screen.
If George Will sez "there are intelligent people who..." one more time!! George, I am an intelligent person who thinks you are a complete GAS BAG with NO COMMON SENSE.
Ms. Roberts, what ever happened to your traditional Democratic up-bringing? I think you are a VERY SAD example of a relatively astute observer who has been living amoung the wretched, corrupt, and powerful for too long.
Sam, I love ya... in comparison with present company, you've got your head and your heart in the right place.
And lastly, it really is time for Peggy Noonan to EXCUSE HERSELF from these kind of issues oriented talking-head round tables. Do you think she was maybe abducted by aliens and returned to us as an under-cover observer from the MOTHER SHIP... or something?
The Republicans have an adjustment to make, back to obeying the laws. It must feel harsh to them.
Imagine if you've been getting away with murder [figuratively only of coarse] for eight years, and then the 'law' pulls the rug from under you. That's gotta sting. I can't wait for the investigations.
...not 'figuratively............LITERALLY' LITERALLY
Apparently a lot of Japanese were executed by the US for waterboarding. let me just say that again. Apparently a lot of Japanese were executed by the US for waterboarding. I don't know if that means the US should execute Bush and Cheeney, but i hope they realize the magnitude of the trouble they have gotten themselves into here. Some sort of punishment short of execution would appear to be in order.
Confine Bush and Cheney, face to face, in the man-sized safe, forever.
there are many intelligent serial killers. Therefore their point of view should be taken seriously.
WASPy Peggy Noonan appears to have undergone stockholm syndrome.
She will justify any torture and killing that the Republiklan party has done in the name of propping up her upper class lifestyle.
SloboGeorge MiloseBush needs to get sent off to the Hague for killing 1 million innocent Iraqis and for the torture of suspects that deserved a trial.
If you read a book entitled "Forbidden Truth: Secret US Taliban Oil diplomacy and the Failed hunt for Bin Laden" You will learn the shocking news that Bush provoked the 9-11 attacks. Yes Bush cared more about money than the lives of people who died on 9-11.
I predict that the Republiklan party will remain out of power for the next 16 years.
.............to God's ears.
Peggy Noonan sure is a looooon! At least I think she is in favor of legalizing marijuana because she sure seems stoned!
. . . She's merely intoxicated by her own blinkered, narcissistic sincerity.
Dick and Donnie and Paul and Richard and John and David and William and all the neocons knew they could get away with it. They knew how to push all the right buttons, wave the flag constantly and tell everyone they were worried about our "security", and then they knew the pundit class would fall in lockstep, minus a few outliers here and there. So far its all gone according to plan. The profits have been obscene, the cost negligible (to them, anyway)
Ignorance is bliss.
Well, honey, then you just ought to be just fucking ecstatic right now.
Jesus H. Christ, what an utter incompetent. Do us a favor, Peggy, don't drink a 12 pack of Falstaff before you write your next column.
seems to be the aim of main stream journalists.
these idiots on the Sunday morning bobble head programs. Will and Roberts were bad enough, Sam Donaldson should have stayed retired, and Peggy Noonan is a ditz who has no clue about what 'torture' and 'suffering' actually mean.
I surely hope that AG Holder will proceed with his investigation and then appoint a special prosecutor. It has been clear to me for a long time that many laws, not just the conventions against torture, have been ignored and broken by many people in the Cheney/Bush administration.
If we do not complete appropriate investigations and bring the evildoers to justice, than our nation founded upon the rule of law, will not survive regardless of what happens with the epic fraud/theft of our wealth that is taking place concomitantly. It appears to be the 'perfect storm'.
these folks dance around the issue. Torture is illegal and a crime. Not to equate the two, but if history serves me right, the Hitler administration deemed their actions legal as well. Hello?!
Think how different this 'conversation' would have been had it been a Democratic President in office for the past eight years...oooooops, he would never have made it. Would have been impeached (if not worse) for total incompentence....if he had not had his head on a pike in the middle of Ground Zero on 9/12/2001.
These god damned conservative pundits are buying their tickets to hell early for defending the murderous and torturous bush administration. I do believe that is where they are headed, no doubt about it.
What a circle jerk. Coooookie has led a privileged life and has never had to want for anything. The fact is she is the definition of a Village insider, having grown up the daughter of a Congressman. If she broke a nail during one of the Georgetown parties everyone of these people attend she'd think she was really suffering.
And don't get me started on Nooner. She has more affectations than any human being that ever lived. Is it any wonder she is unmarried?
God, the thought of it turns my stomach.
Not OT, did anyone see Rachel's opening segment tonight/ Get the popcorn, kids, I think the main show is about to begin, and it could be a doozy.
Just as a certain percentage of Americans think the Iraqi's should be grateful we bombed them back to the stone age so we could restore 20% of their electricity and running water, I'm sure George is sincere in thinking no Iraqi will ever see a DVD of Taxi to the Dark Side. Obviously, not being Americans, they spend all day rooting yams out of the ground with sharp sticks and picking fleas out of their butts, right?
And what percentage of the American audience will nod their heads and think, "Well, sure they would never have known if these memos hadn't been released by that darned Obama"? Would be ethically shameful if it weren't first so overpoweringly shameful in the ignorance we display about the rest of the world.
And how she is glad they were destroyed.
My name is Cooookie and I see no evil. Well, guess what, you Village idiot, whether you ever see what atrocities were committed or not, they still occurred and the criminals reponsible for them should hang, the sooner the better.
Now that's a video I want to see.
"... it was the wrong thing to do but I'm really glad they did it ..."
If anyone ever asks me who Cokie Roberts is, I'm going to say that she is someone who once said "it was the wrong thing to do but I'm really glad they did it." There's nothing else you need to know.
Sums up my thoughts exactly.
I can't stand Peggy Noonan. What a sanctimonious douchebag. She pulls this 'life is a mystery' crap all the time - intentionally fuzzy, illogical, and a convenient way to avoid/evade anything that conflicts with her moralistic worldview.
She's a charter member of a small group of hard-right conservative Catholics with huge influence within the GOP and the right-wing media.
Her phony, saccharine sincerity is totally f*ckin' bogus. She's about as Christ-like as Dick Cheney.
I don't watch the Sunday morning circle jerks for two reasons: One, I'm usually sleeping off my hangover; and two, I can't make hide nor hair of what these fokers are saying. Jeebus! These are supposed to be journalists and they can't even speak in complete sentences! I'm more than happy to have you translate for me, Heather, but you must be doing it purely by intuition because, when I read the quotes above, they don't say nuttin. Also, I fully expect someday for George Will to begin preening himself with his tongue right on camera. George, you are not an intellectual -- you just have the horn rim glasses, that's all.
Generally I like Peggy Noonan. She seems like a genuine, rational conservative rather than a right-wing shill. But this "aw gee, can't we just pretend we never saw anything?" argument is pathetic.
I'd like to know when these time are that you should just keep walking. Rape? Mugging? Genocide? Move along, nothing to see here.
It is such BS when these people talk about "now the terrorists will know...". There was nothing in those memos that we haven't known since Abu Ghraib. Nothing. Everyone in the world has been talking about these techniques (even making movies about them) for at least 4 years. The gov't hasn't even been denying anything. Cheney defended all of these methods every time he was confronted. It is such a bizarre argument and it drives me crazy that no pundit ever brings that up.
Perhaps we can all just move on and pretend nothing happened.
Perhaps our military in Iraq right now can just walk around Iraq and move on.
Maybe,
I can just walk on by after a special prosecutor completes his/her assignment.
Who the fuck is this "keep walking" lady...
She is a total ASSMONKEY...
Why that's Piggy Noonan. She's been a staple of rightwing talk since she was a speech writer for Reagan. She is forever trotting out just the sort of garbage you heard here and she genuinely thinks she is receiving conservative messages from God. (James Wolcott devoted a lot of space to dissecting her in his excellent "Attack Poodles and Other Media Mutants.") She manages to be flaky, evil and saccharine at the same time.
And that's what this has been, a horrific crime, is by rooting out the people that did it, and exposing and punishing them. Period. I want someone (Boston Legal could have done this) to propose that someone did something truly horrific and then say, "Oh, now that we know about it, even though they pursued it zealously and hid it zelously, well, now that we know about it they'll never do it again, so why dwell on the past?" and see how these asshats from the Republicans react.
"Very intelligent people"? Just because they wear that as a lapel pin, George, THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT SO.
Looks like the first prerequsite for appearing on one of these Sunday morning bobble-head shows is to ditch whatever logic, ehtics, and integrity you might possess.
The rightwing pundits simply won't be able to whitewash torture to excuse the Bush administration years in the name of protecting the Republican party, no matter how often they try. It is too horrific a crime and too dangerous to our national security.
Furthermore, America has been shamed and humiliated by the torture done in our name, our self-respect has been stolen by actions that we did not authorize or approve. GW Bush et al did not authorize them for us either -- his administration did not represent us. They did it on the sly, in secret, because they KNEW it was illegal and dangerous, and then arrogantly defended themselves when the truth was revealed.
Let the rightwing pundits continue to speak out. It's certainly a good way to separate the sheep from the goats. It just won't make America forget its outrage at the torture conducted by the Bush administration and it will serve only to extend that outrage to the defenders of torture.
Memba' this is the same moron who dissed Obama for vacationing in "someplace exotic like Hawaii." Seemingly clueless that Hawaii is an American state. I wonder if Cokie Roberts is able to dress herself in the morning?
..THE U.S. does not torture. Releasing information about torture doesn't mean no one doesn't know what's going on. Telling people this is not Nazi Germany doesn't mean we didn't actually torture people and others who were following orders aren't guilty. We wrote the bloody "I was only following orders" laws and stood behind anti-torture legislation here and abroad.
They may think they are smart but they're not!
Will,
I know that this might come to you as a complete shock to know however that the terrorists can read and write, just like you can!
Where would the terrorists go to train, and what do they learn on how to to protect themselves from say; waterboarding 180 or so times,how to ignore sleep depervation, or have a out-of-body feeling when being slammed into a soft wall etc? Surely they must have special training to learn from all the information that is being exposed by the fredom hating left to protect themselves from torure! Got any idea what type of training they use?
Is there some special product that all you idiot-savants on the right use to keep your nose and lips from turning permanently sh*thouse brown?
Before you or any other of the ilk that festers on the right proclaim to be experts on what is and what is not torture, you should be required to undergo all the tortures on Pay-for-TV Specials on Sunday Evenings,you know kinda like a American Idol to crown a King and Queen of Tortures!In that way, you'll be speaking from the heart,not reading from your daily talking points issued by Fox News!
Why is there never an opposing viewpoint on these programs that calls out the hypocrisy, lies,ignorance and fabrications of these pontificators.
Wills, Roberts, Noonan, and Donaldson are talking heads. They are not journalists.
Time after time they reveal that they are out of their depths whether they discuss torture, the law, global warming or any other topic that requires anything more than a soundbyte.
They all truly disgust me.
It looks like Peggy is ready to join Moveon.org.!
"the bad guys train to resist what they know we can use and they are helped by when they are captured knowing what we cannot use. "
Actually according to the New York Times, government memos from the early 1950's show that these methods have never worked for extracting information. Apparently they were used by Communist China during the Korean War, and was roundly denounced by the "civilized" world. Starting with the Korean War American soldiers were trained to resist these methods.
According to psychiatrists these methods might make a prisoner more malleable, but not more truthful. Those who might be terrorists have likely already been trained to endure worse, and the rest just might be innocent.
I posted this link in a previous post, but it is definitely worth reading.
http://progressnotcongress.org/blog/?p=411
They tricked some friends into whitewashing the fence their Aunt Polly told them to do?
The Right Wing-Nuts believe we should just coverup, destroy or let it go to everything that proves the Bush Administration tortured and now should be brought to justice for that.
that this is the first time in my 49 years that I've seen or heard such outragious blatant support for crime from members of the media. It's sick and disgusting!!!
dear sweet woman, this country spent over 40 million to investigate a president for any personal scandel they could find, surely you must see through the haze that surrounds you that torture should be investigated and prosecuted more vigorously than a stained dress. please try and put your "reservations" aside and just keep walking.
and YES george, it does " help our Democracy to hold these people accountable. you really shouldn't say such idiotic things out loud george.
If Peggy Noonan married Ted Knight
she'd be Peggy Noonan-Knight.
but i think the rest of the world has a say in whether we can, uhhh, continue playing in the larger sandbox of nation-states... i think some of us (the advocates and perpetrators of these policies) need to be sent to a timeout, boys and girls.
At least, that what happens when my five year old acts this way.
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