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From Countdown April 16, 2009.

As promised, a Special Comment now on the president's revelation of the remainder of this nightmare of Bush Administration torture memos. This President has gone where few before him, dared. The dirty laundry — illegal, un-American, self-defeating, self-destroying — is out for all to see.

Mr. Obama deserves our praise and our thanks for that. And yet he has gone but half-way. And, in this case, in far too many respects, half the distance is worse than standing still. Today, Mr. President, in acknowledging these science-fiction-like documents, you said that:

"This is a time for reflection, not retribution. I respect the strong views and emotions that these issues evoke."

"We have been through a dark and painful chapter in our history.

"But at a time of great challenges and disturbing disunity, nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past.

Mr. President, you are wrong. What you describe would be not "spent energy" but catharsis.
Not "blame laid," but responsibility ascribed. You continued:

"Our national greatness is embedded in America's ability to right its course in concert with our core values, and to move forward with confidence. That is why we must resist the forces that divide us, and instead come together on behalf of our common future."

Indeed we must, Mr. President. And the forces of which you speak are the ones lingering — with pervasive stench — from the previous administration. Far more than a criminal stench, Sir. An immoral one. One we cannot let be re-created.

One, President Obama, it is your responsibility to make sure cannot be re-created. Forgive me for quoting from a Comment I offered the night before the inauguration. But this goes to the core of the President's commendable, but wholly naive, intention. This country has never "moved forward with confidence".without first cleansing itself of its mistaken past.

In point of fact, every effort to merely draw a line in the sand and declare the past dead has served only to keep the past alive and often to strengthen it. We "moved forward" with slavery in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. And four score and nine years later, we had buried 600,000 of our sons and brothers, in a Civil War.

After that war's ending, we "moved forward" without the social restructuring — and protection of the rights of minorities — in the south. And a century later, we had not only not resolved anything, but black leaders were still being assassinated in our southern cities.

We "moved forward" with Germany in the reconstruction of Europe after the First World War.
Nobody even arrested the German Kaiser, let alone conducted war crimes trials then. And 19 years later, there was an indescribably more evil Germany and a more heart-rending Second World War.

We "moved forward" with the trusts of the early 1900s. And today, we are at the mercy of corporations too big to fail. We "moved forward" with the Palmer Raids and got McCarthyism.
And we "moved forward" with McCarthyism and got Watergate. We "moved forward" with Watergate and junior members of the Ford administration realized how little was ultimately at risk.

They grew up to be Paul Wolfowitz and Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. But, Mr. President, when you say we must "come together on behalf of our common future" you are entirely correct. We must focus on getting things right in the future, as opposed to looking at what we got wrong in the past.

That means prosecuting all those involved in the Bush administration's torture of prisoners, even if the results are nominal punishments, or merely new laws. Your only other option is to let this set and fester indefinitely. Because, Sir, some day there will be another Republican president, or even a Democrat just as blind as Mr. Bush to ethics and this country's moral force. And he will look back to what you did about Mr. Bush. Or what you did not do.

And he will see precedent. Or as Cheney saw, he will see how not to get caught next time. Prosecute, Mr. President. Even if you get not one conviction, you will still have accomplished good for generations unborn. Merely by acting, you will deny a further wrong — that this construction will enter the history books: Torture was legal. It worked. It saved the country.

The end. This must not be. "It is our intention," you said today, "to assure those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution." Mr. President, you are making history's easiest, most often made, most dangerous mistake — you are accepting the defense that somebody was "just following orders." At the end of his first year in office, Mr. Lincoln tried to contextualize the Civil War for those who still wanted to compromise with evils of secession and slavery. "The struggle of today," Lincoln wrote, "is not altogether for today. It is for a vast future also."

Mr. president, you have now been handed the beginning of that future. Use it to protect our children and our distant descendants from anything like this ever happening again — by showing them that those who did this, were neither unfairly scapegoated nor absolved. It is good to say "we won't do it again." It is not, however...enough.



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194 comments

I agree with most of that, but WTF?

We "moved forward" with Germany in the reconstruction of Europe after the First World War.
Nobody even arrested the German Kaiser, let alone conducted war crimes trials then. And 19 years later, there was an indescribably more evil Germany and a more heart-rending Second World War.

I mean really, WTF???

Not going after the Kaiser caused WW2?

The reason why, after the war, that the Dutch protected the Kaiser and everybody else made no great effort to go after him, was that at the time people understood that Great Britain and Russia (France, Austria, Serbia, Belgium, Italy etc. to a lesser extent) were just as responsible for the nutbaggery that led to WW1 as Germany.

The blame game didn't start until long after the war.

that comment sort of showcased a very very very faulty historical knowledge by the original author.

And in this important commentary! Serious blow to Keith's cover!

But what about Truth and Reconcilliation as in South Africa.. not sure that worked either but it seemed civilized.. certainly there were no more serious offences

Where they scouring the streets of planet earth and taking people off to torture camps? Am I safe to leave home, knowing American agents have unlimited authority to imprison and torture, forever, based on some sort of profiling, or even just for kicks?

Shall we all bow down now and pay tribute to the Empire?

Maybe we need Truth and Reconcilliation on a global scale commenserate with the offense.. the actual inhumanity remains the same as that of the Spanish Inquisition, the Soviet Gulags, the Nazi camps, the South African prisons etc etc ad nauseum- but I think you're right, it Was on a global scale and deserves a global stage.

For example: Watergate. The gift that has kept on giving for the better part of 4 decades. Almost every major player in the Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II administrations came from or originated his political career in other way or another from the Nixon administration.

The lack of prosecution and the tacit implication that the President (Nixon) was indeed above the law, enabled the current batch of assholes shitting on the the constitution.

No need to use faulty foreign historical analogies, when we have our very own recent history to prove that "looking forward" is nothing but hogwash, from those who are the least interested in paying the price for their transgressions.

In this sentence ...

We "moved forward" with Watergate and junior members of the Ford administration realized how little was ultimately at risk.

...But I'll agree the Kaiser thing was off.

I was just peeved that he used Watergate as a footnote, when the Nixon administration has been a source of alumni which moved on to undermine our republic. Scandal after scandal after scandal. That is why I did not understand why he spent so much energy on the Kaiser crap, where he should have done Nixon the focus of his point.

Furthermore, I forgot to add a second "moving forward" clusterf*ck: The business plot of the 1930s to overthrow FDR. Prescott Bush was let off the hook, and he went on to a long carreer as a senator, and he spawned two presidents each worse than the other.

Had Prescott served the prison term he deserved (if not right out execution for treason), we would have been in a much much much different place than we find ourselves today.

This is why we need time travel. Just saying. Back to work boys.

If anything, the excessively punitive attitude of Britain and France towards Germany post-WWI caused WW2. They took an already beaten nation and wanted to reduce it to rubble, paving the way for poverty, despair, and a charismatic leader to assign a scapegoat and lead the people to "glory".
After the second World War, we helped rebuild our beaten foes and now they're among our best friends.

Back in WWII, Russia was an ally, and we were fighting Japan who was attacking China. Not Russia isn't fond of us, and Japan is an ally, while China is not an ally, they'll soon be our masters. Obviously it's more complicated than that, but it's late here.

Britain and France and other 'victors' ignored their own culpabilities pre-WWI and while we did help to rebuild our beaten foes after WWII, we held the Nuremburg Trials but we didn't acknowledge some of our own behaviors such as the punitive bombing of Dresden and atrocities in the racialized war in the Pacific and we let the Emperor off.. A favorite saying of my friend's scam artist dad when caught, was "Hey! Lookin for Sh@t, Look up you own @ss!"

I definitely believe in accountability and think we need that in this case but we need to proceed humbly knowing we are human.. that's what I find so attractive about Truth and Reconcilliation.

So true! The most frustrating aspect of this attitude of wanting retribution is that very smart people told the politicos NOT to go ahead with that. Keynes in particular, after seeing the Treaty of Versailles's draft is said to have commented: (I'm paraphrasing from memory here) "What is this? Do you want peace after the war or a second one?"

I agree with the gist of KO comment: As a nation, we just can't let these things go. It's way too dangerous. At the very least, prosecute the OLC lawyers and the top Bush officials...and yes! that includes Rice, Rumsfeld and Cheney.

Always more federal government intrusions and no government accountability.

Obama is a coward and/or corrupted by DC power.

Or

as KO put it, "naive". Not a time for absolutes...........yet.

if bush and cheney were to be tried a Nuremberg THEY WOULD SUFFER THE FATE OF ANY OTHER WAR CRIMINAL OR TORTURER

I grow weary of Tea parties and special comments.

President Obama changed back our Policy saying we don't torture. For 8 years Law Makers and some Americans supported this conduct and really wish it would continue. Torture is against everything this Country stands for. But the first comment was right Obama can't change the psss only correct the present and plan the future. We will see American Families kidnapped, transported, held without charges, tortured, raped and even murdered as the terrorist will use the Bush Policy as their defense. Yes Americans will demand Justice but videos will be shown who did it first and the law as signed by US Law Makers and approved by the American people. What you give out, you get back 7 times. For 8 years the real Axis of Evil was the United States of America. The crimes the Bush Administration committed are to horrorible to print. Just think the Great USA tortured and raped woman and children. How proud we must feel of ourselves and our values while using God's name to commit such great sins.

..is what happens to Americans traveling overseas? or Service Men & Women off duty? What happens to America's image? We all know what the Taliban or al-Qaeda might do and that's just behead a person and certainly all evil and what have you but this act does not make me feel safe traveling outside of the country.

that's part of the whole point. if we don't hold those who tortured accountable, if those that designed the program and implemented it are not brought to justice, then when future crimes are committed, gross or trivial, as long as they are committed by people in power, they will have this president's decision to fall back on.

if you want to regain some credability for this country, mr. president, try enforcing the law.

a dissapointed obama supporter.

i watched kieths show tonight and i could see in his face he was wondering what all the hipe was for electing just warmed over bush obama!

Well said Keith!!

Video not playing.

If the USA (government, which now means Obama) let's this slide... let's just say, the USA is NOT TO BE TRUSTED EVER AGAIN.

I agree with you completely. This is an abomination which should not just go away. Obama will be this generation's Ford. You cannot let this level of lawlessness, cowboy mentality, and fuck the world just simply go. The precedent is terrifying.

This is completely unacceptable.

i am shocked !shocked i say, it seems some are finaly wakeing up and smelling the hipocracy! but i have no illusions obama gives one more great speach and even condoning torture wont matter!

I think you're a bigger asshole than Obama will ever be. Piss and moan elsewhere, whiner.

then youve proved my point and after slurping on obmas stup for all this time it appears your the bigger asshole! now!

I said many times I would call out Obama when I thought he was wrong.

You always think everything is wrong. But don't worry, no one is on your lawn.

why should i worry about my lawn ? the fact that you couldnt see past your nose about what he was is funny i think what you in your slobbering over obamas good looks his kennedy esq family and thoes shovel ready jobs you so admire, that your pissed at how wrong you were ,oh and by the way heres a kiss for yah deary! no hard feelings!

I will get over my hard feelings when you stop pissing and moaning about everything Obama. I don't slobber over anyone. I still support him but I hate this.

That's the difference between you and thinking people. You're just like the goopers; nothing will ever make you happy, ever, no matter what.

Bitch. Whine. Moan. Groan.

Oh, and sorry, you were yelling at clouds...lawn intact.

of course you still support him dear ! whats not to like , ? warmongerings ok, i did enjoy your statement awhile back about all blue collar workers being in construction! it shows you know nothing about what a blue collar worker is!

What has done the English language to deserve such continuous abuse from your part?

The English language is very lame and deserves all the ridicule it can get.

Trust me I have a degree in English.

But torture is still wrong. :D

having it on ignore.....makes a much more pleasant read.

only allows the ignorant to keep their messge going.

but when it's a troll....it's like a brick wall, with the same IQ. So, I'm taking the easy way out.

most fools do!

do you not understand?

It's just simple fun playing Whack-a-Troll (tm).

:)

That's almost as bad as Tea Bagging Parties! ;)

You have to admit that the goopers really stepped in it (or steeped in it) with the whole teabagging (and 2M4M) thing. They are worthy of being totally and completely pwned and laughed at!

Some things are just worthy of (pointing and) laughing at, including some of the dumbasses who post spectacularly stupid shit here.

You certainly are getting it to dance to your tune...:)

or whacking canucks eh !

whacking canucks can be lots of fun, eh!

:)

msjoann seems to think so, week before last she couldnt say enough bad things about canadians while she was insulting concerned canuck,

to try to pit these two women against each other.

the part where you type ignore and dont do it!whats up with that?

And multiple players! You're making this look easy, tyree. :)

(But I still think MsJo got ya at 20:53 with a great set by curtilingus)

:)

You could use one in general comprehension however.

You're sounding like that lady who told the people from the East to change their names for HER convenience.

A simple solution. Skip reading Tirade.

It's for you're own good.

How bold of me. Lecturing a person with a...hold it..."degree".

is that the best you got tyler? how smarmy of you!

So you are able to write in English after all...

and you teach it ? let me see a ten dollar word if it will help you through the night!

Oh, well... back to the ol' ignore list.

Honestly, I can understand the typical grammar error here and there. Heck, nobody has perfect spelling (I am guilty too). At least if you had any sort of intelligent point to make... it would be easier to navigate through your illegible writing.

If you are going to be so condescending, at least have the knowledge to back up such attitude.

In other cultures, when people point out one's mistakes... the polite thing is to apologize for making those mistakes (incidentally that is part of the normal human learning process). But not in this land, no siree Bob! When the analphabets think their opinions get more authoritative the more aggressive and louder they get.

Cheers...

Back on ignore for me, too.

But damn, that was fun!

i would emagine its more action then you useualy get at night!

I honestly don't like doing it (I've put some on ignore for a bit, then decided to take it down, including this one), but I wearied of its tripe and incessant yammering. So, it makes forums a little bit of a nicer read.

so much negativity at one time before one wants to blow one's head off. Ignore makes it much easier.

It makes it stamp its little feet in rage.

would it make a difference if the feet were large?

Whether it was Shrek or someone you wanted to be teabagged by.

;)

nah. Big feet, small feet, same rant. It might make them look funnier (picturing Bozo stamping his feet while screaming at clouds).

sorry but you mostly remind me of gnats buzzing around the round brown on a dogs rump!

n/t

I thought my smarm was better! ;-D

I'm a little surprised by ALL of you.

I am but a pupil in this finest of arts...

if thats so THEN SHUT THE FUluk up!

I am deeply honored!

Thank you, Tyler.

well the fact that you called him an asshole is an improvement but you really shouldnt be so bitchy , i know! it hurts to be proven to be a dolt , dont it hon?

I gotta say when I heard Anderson Cooper asking the two pundants DO WE KNOW IF TORTURE WORKS and they said there is NO PROOF? THE VERY FACT THAT WE HAVEN'T HAD ANOTHER MAJOR ATTACK ON US SOIL OUGHT TO TELL US, LIKE IT OR NOT, THE INFORMATION GAINED THROUGH TORTURE (ie waterboarding) HAS WORKED! THE LEFT DOESN'T LIKE THIS REALITY BUT WE HAVE BEEN KEPT SAFE. How thick can one be? I'm not sanctioning waterboarding per sae but the truth is such tactics did get us the information we needed to deter more attacks. I wish people were as outraged with the attack on 9/11 and all the people killed by extremists who care little for human rights as they are for the rights of these same killers who would and are killing again once released. Any information gotten that will keep us safer, no matter how gotten, is better than more extremists killing in mass new groups of innocent people. If it were me, they'd all be put against a wall and shot to never kill again. You do what you have to do in war to keep your people safe. Our former President Mr. Bush did just that.

On whose watch did 9/11 happen? ANTHRAX??

Spare me.

Don't forget our allies in the war on terror, Spain, England Australia (in Bali). They were all attacked under Bush's watch while torture and renditions kept going.

Do these torture lovers secretly pull wings off flies or something?

Oh shit Ms Joanne.

I'm against torture, but I have been known to pull wings off flies before.

I might need help.

This kinda creepy kid sat beside me in grade five. Not only did he pull the wings off flies, he impaled them with pins, and stuck the pins into his pencil erasers, and kept them in his pencil case, alive, for days. It creeped me right out. Maybe he works for the CIA now. He's got the perfect profile; hired without interview?

There is a natural curiosity in kids (usually boys) to do that, Curt, but Edwin, that is beyond creepy.

You're probably right, too. One can only imagine if we will see your 5th grade kiddo in the Jeffrey Dahmer hall of shame one day.

While odd, and a bit creepy, it's really when they graduate to abusing and/or killing animals in a sadistic fashion that you really need to worry.

Booshhh?

surprise me. He did seem the type. But he's more of a dry drunk.

... where torture has produce reliable intelligence.

Just one. But TV shows don't count.

Also, I'm so sorry that 9/11 affected you so much more than everyone else in this country. The rest of us Americans can never know your unique sorrow.

But, that distraction aside, please name just one instance where torture has resulted in reliable, actionable intelligence.

Just one.

By that logic:

Not torturing people kept us from being attacked for almost 60 years (1941 to 2001).

Let's try to make it another 60 years torture free!

YELLING your comments don't make them any more true or reasonable.

IT MAKES SOME PEOPLE FEEL BETTER! ;-)

flpumc-
You cannot name one instance where torture by the Cheney/Bush people produced any reliable real information. Cheney could not name one instance either. If there was one he would be screaming it from the rooftops but he has not named one. Torture has made us less safe.

And another thing flpumc, the reason we have not been attacked since... since... ah the anthrax deal(?) is because I have hopped on one foot every night for precisely 13 seconds since 9-11. Being safe has nothing to do with torture. It has everything to do with hopping on one foot.

"I'm not sanctioning waterboarding per sae..."

Yes. You are.

No giant asteroids hit the US and the mutant star goat has not eaten our children, so Bush must've protected us from that too!

Thing "A" happened, then we did thing "B", then thing "A" didn't happen again, therefore thing "B" prevented thing "A".

Did I get that right? Sorry, I sometimes get confused, because I have this thing called a cerebral cortex, and it stops me being able to blithely accept things like flawed post hoc reasoning.

I keep thinking things like "gee, maybe Al Qaeda didn't crash any more aircraft into your buildings because they got exactly what they wanted from you, and with only one attack. I bet they couldn't believe their luck" or "that's an odd thing to say, because you actually did get attacked again" or "gosh, doesn't your stipulated standard mean that ol' Willy Clinton protected America equally well, and managed to do it without torturing anyone" or "don't people kind of hate you when you torture them and theirs, don't they kind of end up hating you so much that they'll strap on some explosives and blow themselves up at you" and... oh, countless other things.

The doctor tells me these things are called "thoughts", and are a side effect of having a cerebral cortex. Sometimes it can be very distressing living with cerebral cortex, as it just makes it near impossible to read ridiculous bullshit like that which you typed and not respond.

So you like gaining information, eh. Well, here's some for you, and you won't even have to torture me to get it:

You are wrong.

Ironically, this information is more accurate and may actually keep you safer than any info gained form torture. Of course, I am powerless to stop your continued torture of logic.

)O(

Actually what you referred to would be called post hoc ergo propter hoc.

False post hoc would be an oxymoron, and redundant, since it's already considered a logical fallacy.

)O(

Gee I was going to say that but I'm moron without the oxy and altogether dundant.

Hey, Troll, go back to the right-wingnuttery. BUSH KEPT US SAFE????? the resident in chiefBush, and his band of merry miscreates created the FINANCIAL MELTDOWN. I'm always stunned at how STUPID, backward, idiotic, thick-headed rightwingnutters.

and you don't know how to spell PUNDITS.

This should have shown up higher in the list. It was for fpluc(sp?)

)O(

That's also per se, not per sae, and not only are you conjecturing, but you're also using the Bare assumption fallacy, Dicto simpliciter, as well as just generally speaking specious reasoning.

)O(

My gawd. Your reading my mind!

They did that in Germany.See history book. And that worked out sooooo well for them.
The Japanese did that.
The Chinese did that.
The Soviets did that.
You're not doin to well here bud.
Perhaps you should crack a history book.
Then proceed to a book about The Geneva Convention.
You lost more civil liberties under bush that you know. And that's pretty pathetic.

Show a little bit of guts, stop being so afraid for your safety that any and all means justify the end. I have seen little kids who had more backbone and were far from being the willfully ignorant dumb-shit that you seem to be. Look for some one in your family( who doesn't have an extra thumb) to read the big words for you and do a bit of honest research out side of your comic book collection. News must be delivered late to the bridge you live under... delay?...newt?...is that you? CEO,citizens,eyes,open.

Obama created the "look forward" whitewash meme, for that I lost a huge amount of admiration and respect I had for him. Like the "impeachment is off the table" garbage Pelosi is infamous for, these type of catch phrases that defend criminal actions of "right" wing animals are beneath contempt.

Torture was used to force false confessions to cover their asses for the invasions.

Torture and rendition, and the revocation of habeas corpus, were used to terrorize every bloody one of us.

"Don't go there 'people'. Vee have vays of dealing with people like you."

Keep your silence, or else.

The instruments of choice by those bastids! And the fact that we all had to suffer these indignities has made us especially angry.. we need to deal with this situation for our psychic health if nothing else and I think turning a bright light on these bugs would do wonders for us all

Yep, I credit (?) Mossad for water-carrying THEIR Iraq war. You know, Zionists always get someone ELSE to fight THEIR wars. Mossad/BUSHCRIMEFAMILY, United States of Israel.

i like obama but,
now all he has to do is say he
pardons both bush and cheney...it's leading
there...to not set up a special council to
look into the domestic crimes to the USA not
to mention the international war crimes of
bush and cheney, is just WRONG !!!!!

Do I smell a congressional medal of freedom from Obama to Bush?
Like the one George gave to George Tenant for the excellent work he did in both preventing AND responding to the 911 attacks?

This week we saw federal agents take the ailing 89-yr-old John Demjanyuk [sp?] out of his home in a wheelchair to be deported.

The hypocrisy of "reflection" vs. retribution cannot be ignored.

... from a neocon perspective.

only when it's their own.

Would have been his relative youth and junior status at the time, and his magical ability to have been at so many infamous death camps in so short a time period.

Its almost like how many nasty camps can we pin onto his nazi resume.

I know that a black man as president will be faced with risk to him or perhaps his family but I expect Obama to face those risks as a leader. Has the Oligachy reach out to him with threats against him or his family? That is is question we all have to be asking.

Well, if that's the case, ron, the saddest verdict of all is, America is really is a shithole masquerading as an "upright" "democracy".

I can't agree more. That's why we can't let them win.

Obama can always pardon the low-level CIA agents and contractors who carried out the illegal orders AFTER those low-level CIA agents and contractors have been tried and convicted.

I could (almost) live with that, so long as EVERYONE above a certain level in the chain of command serves time.

But pardoning BEFORE they've even been prosecuted, by saying they shouldn't BE prosecuted, is entirely unsatisfactory.

And one more thing. Since when does our President get to decide who should or should not be prosecuted? That's not his job; it's up to the courts to make such a decision.

I agree with you, MM23.

Well put, MountainMan.

Let the world see their faces and lets hear their justification of why they did it so willingly.

And how many of the CIA medics/doctors are now working in public hospitals, passing themselves off as normal moral professional medics.

in any third party prosecutions of Bushco criminals, the DoJ has the budget and the person power to keep any legal actions impotent.

They could start targeting anybody who dares even try to, or get at people in other ways.

It would be the ultimate acid test and expose, if Obama's DoJ started acting worse domestically than Bushcos DoJ did.

How far will the Democratic party go in protecting the Republican party criminals...

Hopefully we will see more and more outcry from these released documents! If our government is going to prosecute these people (so sad) we need to show them that we are behind them. We must show them that we are committed to following the rule of law, and then we will be rewarded with some hangings.

We need to make bets on which grease ball cops a deal first. Looking over the major players, Karl Rove cracks first. He is too self-absorbed to fall on his sword and hated enough that he would be asked to. Karl is my pick.

Anyone else?

He's been hung out as a felon already.. he might be good for some payback..

excellent point, and with his prior conviction, just leaning on him might snap him into singing like a canary....

Before any of their testimony gets heard.

DC MADAM stuff.

I think we can 'credit' (?)Darth Cheney's little, private, assasins with the untimely deaths of:
Paul Wellstone/family
Sen. Callahan Missouri Dem (small plane m.o.)
Dr. David Kelley Brit, researcher on authenticity of Chalabi's shit
Both Kennedys
Dr. Martin Luther King
DC Madam
THOUSANDS MORE??

.....Laws, an antiquated idea of the Kleptocracy to 'assure' the peóns quiet, never meant to be enforced on/by that same Kleptocracy. There will be no prosecution. The coup de tat of 2000 was/is permanent. Get used to it.

The democrat face of the republicans.

I want my Democratic Party back.

FUCK THE CLINTONITES!!!!!

it was obviouse that the democrats were never going to hold bush and cheny responsible for the tortureing of prisoners , palosi and ried both told you so, were you not listening? obama gave the appearence of doing so but only to suck in the dolts who couldnt see he was a repig lite,didnt get it! now your pissing and moaning about it? it was right in front of your eyes all the time!

too many guilty associates of the Bushco regime lurk there in DINO garb.

... with Nancy Pelosi's pantsuits?

You mean that shit she carries in her pants?? Reid, useless ass, punto. You said it, congress is part of the Kleptocracy. Where's Concerned Canuk? I need that Koolaid now, please.

for all the good Obama is doing, this
if it is left untouched just might be the
nail in the coffin of a 2nd term.
i am very disappointed....again the dc boys club
is ignoring it's responsibility to the country.

CRIMINALS IN THE WHITE HOUSE MUST BE TRIED FOR THEIR CRIMES !!!!!

While I didn't exactly hate Clinton or Obama...more or less both of them are seeming to appease the right wing. Making mistakes that echoed and will echo onward. I don't get it as the right whine needs no more appeasing, needs more opposing. But I guess the DC boys all have their own interests at heart.

so wich is it you love them you hate them? you like them kissing repig ass or not? make up your mind sparky!while ive enjoyed your douchbag jokes at my expence no one really knows where you stand, so dance on this!----

.

tyree is on your ignore list.

.

Quite apropos.

Well, I'm hoping when it sees what I'm seeing when it posts, it'll get the message. But somehow I doubt it.

Update: Proven correct

You are correct. Blinded by the forest.

...

What the hell is going on.... Is every one mad cause Obama is turning out to be a bummer so far? I do like some of what he is doing, but the LAW and MORAL values??

Incase you guys missed it....

Thu, 04/16/2009 - 21:50 — tyree

so wich is it you love them you hate them? you like them kissing repig ass or not? make up your mind sparky!while ive enjoyed your douchbag jokes at my expence no one really knows where you stand, so dance on this!----

LOL, don't be mad.

tyree, I think the problem is, we want to like Obama, and he has done a lot of good things, but he's also done/doing some things we don't like. He is a far far better person than Bush will ever be (and I certainly didn't want McCain.) (Kucinich is another post, ok?)

As a Veteran, I know war issues ring particularly poignantly with you. I think everyone is disappointed that Obama isn't that "glowing man on the hill," the one we saw during the campaign, when it comes to some of these biggest issues.

I, for one, do admire much of what he has done, but I am not pleased with his ideas for Afghanistan and Pakistan. Nor this latest release of the "torture" memos, yet he does not intend to prosecute for war crimes.

I never expected him to turn Washington around in a few months, or even one term as president. Nor Wall St., or the MIC.

It's all very problematic: for every step forward, there seems to be one backward also. I think people here are upset because you count the steps backward, but never mention the ones forward.

well perhaps the steps forward look like just so much smoke and mirriors , im reminded of a scean in dr zhevago where this commisar asks the woman he thinks is dr zheivagos lost daughter , he askes her dont you want to believe dr zevago was your father , and she says not if it tisnt so! well it tisnt so with obama hes a corporations dream!

Name a president, at least since WW II (I don't know your history that well), that wasn't. They're all corporate dreams. They hang together at the same "country clubs/watering holes." That's America (unless you change it.)

Nothing really changes. It hasn't in my lifetime. Bad followed by less bad? Wave flags, repeat lies.

just when have you seen me give any praise to any president on here outside of fdr, you say i dont give any credit for anything obama does whats he done? im still waiting for that answer , i think the problem heres not that ive been wrong about obama but that ive been right all along and many are just now finding that out, msjoann calls obama an asshole and i get jumped because i knew it before she did, others say the same things ive been saying all along and never get called for it, you think i should roll over for the botts that pal around with each other to keep them happy? by the end of this year thier will fewer willing to even admit they voted at all, let alone for obama,

"just when have you seen me give any praise to any president on here outside of fdr"

Never said you did and never would I. I was simply saying, they all suck, (some more than others.)

I had hoped Obama would be different, and he is in some ways, but perhaps not about the biggest issues, ones which I care about most-- like torture and these wars.

As I'm not American a lot of the domestic issues are of little importance to me (but do indicate the Washington mindset.) I have been against these wars since before they began, and was signing petitions before any bombs dropped. Torture and all the other BS just made it all the worse.

I really hate America anymore. I know there are some good folks living there, but YOU (collectively) let this happen. Apathy, American Idol, buying cheap consumer goods from China, charging up the cards, letting the good times roll, and NOT PAYING ATTENTION.

I think it's very true, you get the government you deserve.

PS I have no beef with you tyree. You tell it like you see it. That is your right.

What bothers me (amongst scads of things), is they do all this stuff for political reasons, at home, in the USA. Somehow they want "domestic tranquility," it would seem. Yet at the same time, they're whining that NATO doesn't pull it's weight, and other nations should send more troops, and pony up more "reparations money." Yet, reading about all this torture, in all it's gory grandeur, (not to mention scads of other things)makes me want to demand EVERY LAST CANADIAN is pulled out of this immoral morass the USA has dragged us into.

You also have to think about the world outside the US border. I want no part, nor party, of your nation. Is this what we have to "look forward to?" A lawless USA goose-stepping the earth doing whatever it bloody well pleases? Have we forgotten the Third Reich did just that?

Is this what we have to "look forward to?"

I hope not.

Nite J.

Bedtime here too.

How rude. Edwin has a very serious point to make and all you can come up with is three miserable words apiece, one not even on topic.

I responded to "The Galloping Beaver" about the poor lady soldier who was killed in that useless confrontation and was scolded for bringing up the uselessness of it in a commemorative blog.

Canadians, it seems, are to be ignored as poor cousins who don't deserve a spot at the big table...even by other Canadians.

3rd Reich behaviour overseas by our military, and our local cops jackbooting around demanding respect.

'They read the book, but thought it was a manual of how to, not a warning'

and thank you.

We seriously need some DoJ justice and bringing to account of these monsters.

Republicans have already done that too, as they blame the national debt on bill Clinton

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