Israeli Troops and Armor massed at Gaza border
By CSPANJunkie Monday Dec 29, 2008 11:00amDecember 28, 2008 CBC News Sunday
It's looking very scary:
Defense Minister Ehud Barak stated,"This operation will expand and deepen as much as needed. We went to war to deal a heavy blow to Hamas, to change the situation in the south."
He told a special Knesset meeting Monday, "We have nothing against the people of Gaza, but we are in a war to the death with Hamas. We are engaged in an all-out war against Hamas and its proxies."
More from the New York Times.
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Surely not. Bush said he was bringing peace to the Middle East, ergo none of this bad stuff is really happening.
Bush's bitter legacy, one of death, destruction, hubris and chaos.
Bush can't take all the credit for that, that's been the US's warmongering and profiteering legacy for the longest time.
Ever since switching sides in WW2 to make even more money.
The myths and complete BS that the US people believe constantly amazes me (and the rest of the world).
And in this case, it's unwavering support of Israeli genocide and state sponsored terrorism.
Don't worry america, the world has been keeping score, you'll get yours.
I don't think it is a war to the death if Hamas doesn't have the ability to destroy Irrael (which they don't). Of course Israel has the right to exterminate Hamas in its occupied territory, but for Mr. Barak to call it a 'war to the death' is a bit dramatic.
It's more like a death of the two-state peace solution.
"Of course Israel has the right to exterminate Hamas in its occupied territory"
They have a right to do this?! The US government has killed how many Iraqis? Does Iraq have the "right" to carpet bomb DC or the Democratic and Republican Party headquarters?
Ya really want the answer to that one Wilber?
and I'd like it to not be as simple as the typical US or Israeli exceptionalism. What logic would justify this so much that you'd accept another country doing the same for the same reason?
"Does Iraq have the "right" to carpet bomb DC or the Democratic and Republican Party headquarters?"
Um... YES. I mean, if were playing by American rules, then yes, absolutley. But the civilized world isn't too jazzed with American --or Israeli-- rules these days. (So I will concede, no, not by civilized norms.)
By American rules, if some kid in Montana stubs his toe, you have the right to nuke the planet.
And to be honest...if the RNC HQ got blown up...I wouldn't lose much sleep.
"Of course Israel has the right to exterminate Hamas"
Oh really?!? Thanks for showing up, however, no prize today.
The weird thing is one of the most stable areas in the Middle-East right now are on our enemies list, Iran. They have peaceful changes of power (under the auspices of the ayatollahs of course), and although they always appear to be threatening their neighbors so far the only time they've gone to war was against Iraq, and we financed Saddam for that war. I don't recall how it started.
out of a jointly-shared border region with a port that Iraq coveted.
Saddam Hussein got lots of USer support for his efforts which, in the end, cost the Iraqis almost a million casualties and effective control of the region.
last time Iran went to war was in 1722 or so, when they sacked and robbed parts of India. Though Wikipedia is muddy on the declarations regarding the wars with Russia around 1800 or so.
After the Ayatollahs took over from the US supported dictatorship, they have been doing it by proxyes like Hezbollah, and Hamas.
Crappy thing is, Hamas pretty much runs all of the usable hospitals in the area, with Iranian support, so destruction of Hamas buildings/organizations, would include those.
stop it. you definitely know better.
Israel sucks!
No, Israel, as a nation and a people does not suck. Violence sucks.
But I stand by my prior statement.
Israel sucks.
As a nation, they undoubtedly suck. And the Israeli people, if they stand idly by while this genocide against the Palestinians perpetrated by their government...well then...they pretty much suck too...
Of course...the same can be said about America as a nation, and as a people for the last 8 years.
Alot of nations suck...but Israel and my good ol USA are toppin the list.
Damn...can't type worth a damn today...
:
It struck me as I was typing that yesterday...
is caused by, supported and many times turned a blind eye to by the "innocent" Israeli people who apparently are powerless to stop it.
Israel can either take back all the land that the Palestinians occupy and impose their laws there or they can embrace the Palestinians and treat them as equals. Of course, neither of these things will happen since both the Israeli government and Hamas depend on this constant state of siege to maintain their seat of power.
It does suck. This I will agree.
Is this bush's parting gift to President-elect Obama? As if he weren't already dumping enough crap on him to deal with, along comes this.
And this surprises you?
THANKS bUSH
This is becoming more absurd than a Coen Brothers comedy. The Bush/Cheney/Rove/Rice revisionist roadshow is so busy saying how we'll all remember them well someday. However, if any of this turns out okay it will be because Obama managed to fix it.
is using the same line of BS that the US used in Iraq. It's "their" fault. "Collateral damage" will be necessary to kill the invisible unknown terrists. blah, blah, blah, blah. And the Israeli supporting governments of the world all respond with a ...."Hamas has to stop their killings"...um..ya...ok....Hamas kills 20 Israelis a year, Israel mass kills, starves, segregates, and maims. It would be like Germany blaming the Jews for going through so much gas commiting suicides.
wont even bother to argue....[Deleted. Abusive. Site Monitor]
I won't be as rude as you, but just think about it. The rest of the world is.
this is what happens when you close your eyes to anything that hamas or fatah have been doing
where was the condemnation for the missiles being shot by those factions into israel proper? and that started happening the second israel pulled out of gaza
so fuck the world...they hate jews too
btw, where have the other arab states been during all of this?
nowhere....they love using the palestinian people as pawns
an Arab state on here Uncle Joe, and it is a bullshit cop out to scream anti-sematic Jew haters every time Israel mass kills defenceless women and children that have absolutely nothing to do with a rocket of any kind landing in Israel. I call bullshit on your "everyone just hates the Jews" bullshit. Stop killing people, and people would be more than willing to listen to your diatribes.
did stop killing people; they abided by the Egyptian cease-fire agreement until Hamas started bombing defenseless Israelis. Why is Israel expected to just sit there? Where were the cameras when Hamas was bombing innocent Israelis? Are you aware that of those people Israelis bombed, the majority are not "women and children" but Hamas operatives, including a graduating class of future suicide bombers?
The Israelis, who are in election mode (which war helps the right, of course) attacked on Nov 4, when American's were looking elsewhere and broke the 6 month ceasefire due to expire on the December the 19th.
to suggest that the civilians on the receiving end of those Qassam rockets are not victims because because Hamas has not been quite as effective as they'd like at killing Israelis. I call bullshit when I see someone act as an apologist for intentional terrorist acts. Those rockets have been increasing in size, range and payload and they are directed at civilian population centers. Take your family and go stand out in a rocket attack and I'll consider your argument. I still won't agree with it but I'll consider it.
OK.
Go and live in a cage, without food, electricty or medicine first, and tell me you wouldn't fight to be released. Then I'll go.
Politely: your argument is unconvincing and without substance.
One cannot condemn the firing of rockets into Israel without also condemning the conditions that provoked them.
And if we want to follow that line of reasoning, we can go back very far indeed in attempting to place blame on only one party. The results of such an analysis would be inconclusive at best. At worst, I believe they would find great fault in how Israel has displaced the Palestinians by force in an "enlightened" era.
Surely modern times could have found a better solution for the creation of a Jewish state.
So yes. Fuck the world, and fuck any rational approach to this problem. Why bother trying to do anything differently when what we've done in the past has clearly worked out so well?
There just is no comparison. While the U.S. tortured people, none of the torturers were wearing Nazi uniforms. When the U.S. invaded Viet Nam and Cambodia and Iraq, they did not have swastikas on their planes and their bullets and bombs were not made in Germany. When Vietnamese civilians were being burned alive by napalm, and Iraqis by phosphorus, they were still alive.
And now, when Israel is killing children and bombing civilian areas, they are not using ordnance made in Germany. They are on the side of God, as He gave them all that land, and God did not give Germany the title to Poland or Czechoslovakia. There is just no bloody comparison at all.
But injecting religious rhetoric into this debate does nothing but muddy the water.
As far as I'm concerned, God is a collective delusion, and is simply being used by mankind, after having been invented by mankind, to justify any number of horrors.
So please. Save it. If this so called "God" would really set up one group of people against another with nothing but hate and bloodshed to ensue, then this so called "God" is nothing but a sadist and this so called "God" can go to straight to hell.
Here Here!!Blind religious sheep to the slaughterhouse.
.
wanted to exterminate a group of people. If Israel wanted to exterminate the Palestinians, they would have done so.
[Deleted. Abusive. Site Monitor]
I mean it's not like they can nuke Palestine...so it has to be a slower process of eliminating them.
You are way out of line Joe. People have a right to their opinions. I've seen your mind is closed in other threads. You are correct, the end. You're an ideologue-- your own.
Link: Leaders Lie, Civilians Die, and Lessons of History are Ignored
those evil Hamas rockets in Youtube videos. Not even strong enough to blow a hole in pavement. Of course the best response would be to kill Palestinian women and children. How dare you throw rocks at our defenseless tanks!
think the united states would just kick back and do nothing???
get a fucking clue
maybe you should have gone to live in sderot and seen what life was like
little bit different than watching a video
Obviously, you are clueless - Hamas is not the people of Gaza, just as the people of Gaza are not Hamas. You appear to be for indescriminate killing of Gaza residents.
The Israelis are not indiscriminately killing Palestinians; do a little more research. Israel warned them in advance they were going to strike; they have attacked Hamas military targets and have succeeded greatly. They can't possible avoid civilian deaths. Hamas targets civilians.
If you fence people in, and start lobbing bombs, and firing misslies, who do you think gets hit? Magically, just the "bad guys". Gaza is one of the most densely crowded regions on earth. They have no way out.
n/t
Issrael is attacking Canada?
I agree with the following:
*if the Mexican Mafia in Juarez were to start to inadvertantly spilling their crazy violence over the US Border (let alone launch rocket strikes) you would see the US mobilize heavy military force across the mexican border immediately.
*"the Jews stole the lands" meme is a little thin when Jews have been there for 3000 years
*states have been dispossessing populations since time immemorial (US has and continues to disposses the indigenous population here)
*the creation of "new states" is not automatically "wrong" - Kosovo and East Timor are the newest states and they have also dispossed and perpatrated violence on the miniorty population.
*Hamas is a terrorist organization
I DISAGREE with the following:
*the creation of a modern state based on religous ethnicity. This is foolish and doomed from its inception.
*Hamas and the people of Gaza are one in the same and should be punished collectively.
*****
I know people in Lebanon who are suffering and do not and never have supported Hamas. This is the paradox of terrorism... if you fight them using violence you run the risk of becoming the monster you fight. Look at the US after 9/11. We became a state that tortures, bombs and kills civilians, etc.
I don't think Israel should just sit there and take it from Hamas, but they must not fall into the trap of becoming the violent monster they fight.
The League of Nations approved the British Mandate of Palestine.
With the intent of establishing a home land for the Jewish people. This happened after WW1.
In 47, The UN declared a partition of Palestine. One Arab State, the other a Jewish State. In 48, Israel declared it's independence. And proceeded to start wars with all of it's neighbors.
As for looking at it from a religious historical perspective. The Palestinians were there before the Jewish were.
Remember the Jews wandering around the desert for 40 years?
1. I was not looking at it from a religious perspective, but a realistic one (please read)
2. in '48 Israel would say it responded to attacks against it from almost all its neighbors. I really don't know what the truth is. I'd venture to say something a bit more nuanced than "Israel = Devil/ Arabs = Saints"
3. Whatever the "truth" are you saying that that justifies terrorism now?
Exactly what do you think should have been the Israeli response to missles launched by Hamas?
The declaration was followed by an invasion of the new state by troops from Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon and Syria, starting the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, known in Israel as the War of Independence (Hebrew: מלחמת העצמאות, Milhamat HaAtzma'ut). Although a truce began on 11 June, fighting resumed on 8 July and stopped again on 18 July, before restarting in mid-October and finally ending on 24 July 1949 with the signing of the armistice agreement with Syria. By then Israel had retained its independence and increased its land area by almost 50% compared to the partition plan.
As for who's at fault here.
They both are.
This is a realistic perspective.
Try doing some reading of your own.
Israel has been trying to starve out the Palestinians during this truce. They've even gone as far as to attack the local fishing fleets to make sure thay come back with no food. So much for a truce ehh?
As for the missles, perhaps some diplomacy is in order
But that would be asking too much, wouldn't it?
My 3K remark (and the list that followed) was in response to Uncle Joe McCarthy.
At any rate, I agree that both wer at fault. In fact in handing out fault, I would include Europe and go all the way back to the whole redivision of the Ottoman Empire. That has caused and continues to cause a whole slew of inter-ethnic conflicts from the Balkans to the Middle East on to the Near East.
Regarding diplomacy, my understanding is that the Left in Israel has been advocating consessions and diplomacy in the Gaza strip, saying that that approach would reduce the violence. When it didn't work, and in fact the violence from Hamas increased, the Hardliners in Israel said "aha! see, we told you." With elections pending the Left has now taking a harder line with Hamas, trying to demonstrate they are strong on national security (sound familiar?)
As a terrorist organization Hamas has played right into the hardliners hands. Netenyahue is happy as a clam.
BTW, In addition to having its roots as a terrorist organization Hamas has no idea of how to govern or deliver anything to its people except violence and rhetoric. Perhaps in addition to "diplomacy" there needs to be some training in democracy and governance for Hama. When I worked in Kosovo, the "leadership" had similar problems in making the transition from a "militant" stance to one of constructive engagment.
Because I've lived in ethnic conflict zones I don't see this as so black and white. That is usually not very useful for solving the problem....
I will look into what you say about Israel trying to 'starve out" local fishing fleets etc.
I agree with pretty much everything you've said here.
Hamas and Hezbollah are both violent factions that exist inside of both Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon.
I believe both are financed by outside sources. Iran I believe. But I could be mistaken on that.
As for the fishing fleets.
They used a cannon that fired a "stink bomb"
That made it intolerable for them to stay out.
I do think that this is a viscous circle.
Both are at fault.
I certainly don't think that all Palestinians are rabid terrorists. A lot of them are stuck in the middle with nowhere to go.
And I certainly don't think that all Israelis are warmongers.
There has to be some people there that want peace.
I don't know what else to say. I'm so tired of this conflict there. I was born in 57, and I've been watching this my whole life. I doubt I'll see the end of it in my lifetime.
I don't pretend to have the answer to this. As you say, it is a vicious cycle of terrorism-state militarism-terrorism-militarism etc. (something the Bush Idiots fell into with an utter lack of self-reflection).
I have met people from Israel and Palistine that don't support violence and only want what every normal person in the world wants -- food on the table, safety in their homes, a bright future for their children. Doesn't seem like such a tall order but it is, especially when you have people who have been oppressed feeling like violence is the only option and states operating out of fear instead of intelligence. It only takes a few agressive people within society to create conflict.
BTW, what is your take on Egypt's role in this? They have been accused of "shutting off" the other side of the Gaza box and mishandling this as well. Egypt's economic situation is really bad right now too.
On another note, I am concerned for the incoming Obama administration. The dichotomies that are created by hardliners on the right and left could completely undermine him and his change agenda. He would be wise to remind people that the past economic and military responses of the right in this country are UTTERLY BANKRUPT.
We need another kind of response to this.
That seems long forgotten now.
If people aren't willing to negotiate, then all is lost.
Egypt: They're afraid of getting wrapped up into this. That, and being in a financial crisis of their own make it unlikely that they will do anything. I go back to talking to each other.
Obama: Diplomacy. Let's hope he does it. That would be a Change.
Good Night. Be Well.
Not even strong enough to blow a hole in pavement.
That could be because the rockets are tipped with anti-personnel, rather than high explosive, heads.
they can launch one of these bottle rockets at your family and you can just say, "Well, it was only 20 innocent civilians they indiscriminately killed, so that's okay."
No Israeli civilians were killed until after Israel began killing hundreds of Palestinians. The latest casualty numbers I have read are one Israeli civilian killed with ten injured.
This Israeli attack on a basically unarmed and imprisoned population is based on a pretext. It is also mass murder.
But, before "I" fired that rocket, I was caged in and starved: no food, no electricity, no medicine. A slow death was imminent for my family, can I not protect my family from those that caged it in?
You're not considering that part of things.
that is when the rockets started flying
hamas, in its great wisdom, chose to continue their terrorist attacks rather than build up gaza
why should israel trade with an org that wishes to see it destroyed
buy a clue
why would Hamas bring a knife to a gunfight??
Kinda like poking a BIG dog with a stick and bitching about getting bit....but then in all fairness, I'm sure there is MUCH to this whole episode that I don't know....
....I'm just sayin'
Withdrew and left them caged and starving. Don't forget caged and starving. That's not life, that's not freedom. They haven't a chance of anything better than living in a cage!! That's the world's biggest iternment camp.
Build up Gaza WITH WHAT? They have had to build tunnels just to get in a gallon of fuel, or some food to eat. They're using donkeys as they have no gas. Get out of your La-Z-boy. How much food you got in your fridge? How many cars in your driveway? What have you ever gone without?
wasn't it not long afterward they started plowing Palestinians homes and olive groves under the ground so Israeli "settlers" can illegally occupy more and more Palestinian owned land?
Neither side is innocent of wrong doing, but Israel is slaughtering the Palestinians wholesale.
And it's not working, this conflict has been goin on since I can remember...and the hardline approach doesn't appear to work very well...for anyone.
This is the point. The Jews have taken almost everything from the Palestinians with the help of The Good Ol USA. Its a classic set up. Deprive someone of all human necessities, wait for them to bite back, then pounce with overkill. I have to admit, I hate Neocons and Zionists.
but I believe that the Palestinians have a legal right to fight against occupation. Perhaps you would have a different view if George Washington was captured and hung by the British and independence was never realized. I'd suspect that there would be one hell of a lot of "terrorists" in the country ... it all depends on one's perspective.
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
I suppose if someone was lobbing bombs at your house, you'd say, "gee," let me see if I'm oppressing them." Israel has abided by all the peace treaties, Hamas continues to break them. Hamas says Israel should be driven into the sea, but it's all Israel's fault, even though Israel consistently does their best to avoid civilian targets.
Yes, some of the Israeli settlements need to be disbanded, but until the Palestinian people show that they want peace by rejecting Hamas's hate, Israel has the obligation to defend itself.
And yes, Israel compared to the nazis? F-off is correct.
IMO Israel is an occupier. how do you like them apples
You sound like my neo-con ideological friend in Australia, or Bush. It's all so neat and tidy for them. Good guys and bad guys: white hats, black hats. Support the "good guys" you've been brainwahsed to idealize my your MSM for the last 30 years. That's very clever thinking. So profound.
Israel "has abided by all the peace treaties"?! Which ones, let's do a factual analysis of that. Lets also examine whether or not Israel has abided by international law, since they violate more UN Security Council resolutions than any other country, and are isolated with the US (and usually a couple US puppet regimes) on votes at the UN and international law. I know, the whole world hates Jews and Israel has a monopoly on how you define morality.
You ask how would we feel if we had bombs thrown at us. Let's expand that to get an overall picture of the situation (in the end, it's like asking how we would feel if we happened to invade Iraq, steal their resources (land in this case), destroy their economy and the people had the indecency to fire at us). The people have had their land stolen (again in opposition to international law and opinion), have been economically destroyed and always see their people die by a large ratio whenever a conflict occurs. If you were living under those conditions, what would be the realistic response? You'd ask that they lay down and die, shut up, and accept whatever crumbs are thrown at them.
the only country to ever give back land won in a war, in pursuit of peace, keeps making concessions, and Hamas keeps bombing. Israel should just let Hamas bomb them, give back more land so that Hamas believes they are winning with violence, until Hamas has strategic control of enough land to bomb Israel into the sea, as is their stated goal.
Pretending this is the poor, innocent Palestinians versus mean, aggressive-for-no-reason Israel is incredibly simplistic.
Yes, war is bad, and nobody likes it. Let's not pretend that Israel is just plain aggressive for no reason.
So, are you (the USA) keeping Iraq? Is that the plan?
Zero Israeli' were killed before Israel began bombing a million captives killing hundreds. I asked you this earlier and you disappeared.
Also, where is this imaginary existential threat to Israel? It has conventional military superiority over any country in the region as well as a nuclear arsenal. So why the existential threat?
Link.
At Auschwitz the Nazis played Chamber Music as they gassed the Jews.
and Hamas says Israel has no right to exist and they will drive them into the sea. And the nazis also wanted to exterminate the Jews. No links necessary.
You seem to have not taken into account a simple fact: Hamas is not the people of Gaza, just as the People of Gaza are not Hamas.
"I am against violence because the good it does is temporary, but the evit it does is permanent." Mahatma Gandhi
No links necessary because that's what your American media has told you. It must be true.
Just like they told you Saddam had WMDs and nuclear weapons. Like they forgot to tell you, the USA supplied them, and they were sunsequently destroyed, as none were found.
The Nazis didn't want to exterminate the Jews? Hamas hasn't continually and openly stated that they don't recognize Israel's right to exist? Do you seriously think either of those aren't true and I need to provide links?
Come on, Edwin, that's not comparable to the WMD story. That's history and fact. Straw man argument worthy of Republicans. Try to read what I wrote and debate on the issues and not use specious reasoning.
My point is, don't so easily accept what you are told. I am suspect of "translations" especially anything from Arabic!!!
Arabic is a flowery language, not hard nuts and bolts of English. Flowery languages use indirect methods of communication, and metaphor, that we often do not understand properly. I know: I live in a country that conveys ideas this way. They are not always what they seem. Americans continually misrepresent the point being made, and propagandize it for "breaking news" stories. My point is, it's not all so neat and tidy. Yes, language matters, a very great deal.
(But you fire translators for being gay, so who is doing the translation, and how good is it? And how propagnadized is it? The WMDs reports would indicate it's propagandized plenty!!!)
Time and time again, Americans have had myopic visions of cultures that are not their own. (Bush didn't even know about Sunnis and Shia.) I don't ever expect the USA to get it right when dealing with other cultures. You've got all the guns and are not good at listening.
I can't say I blame Hamas for using harsh language regarding Israel. I would too. And if they do not recognize Israel's right to exist, I can't say I blame them.
No justice no peace. As long as Israel is allowed to run roughshod over the whole region, Arabs will hate us.
We enable Israel and at the same time keep the "war machine" eating people and shitting planes and bombs.
Liberal Globalist Mainstream Conventional Wisdom Democrats support Israel, but Progressives know better.
remember, we had nothing against the people of iraq....just sadaam
this is bush's map for peace
We have zero moral authority in this mess. They stole the "Dubya Doctrine".
I am sick of seeing innocent middle-eastern people murdered.
I am sick of seeing innocent people murdered, period.
Mrs. Bush, Rice: Bush presidency not a failure
First, imprison one million people. Don't let anyone out; try to let nothing in - except when international pressure forces you to. Eliminate as much of the foreign press as possible to minimize international pressure.
When the prisoners are not starving quickly enough, use any convenient pretext for using your air force to bomb the defenseless captives.
Monstrous.
So die Palestinians. It's your fault. How dare a battered wife let her spouse beat her. The nerve!
Israeli-Firster: An American who values the Israeli Genocide of the Palestinians (code-named "defense of Israel") more than their love of American Democratic Principles.
Hillary Clinton, Al Franken, et al ...
a few posters on here, that scream anti-semitism every time Israel attacks and kills hundreds. Nice. Oh those evil terrorists! Ya, let's bomb and kill every Afghani while we are at it, cuz there are a few terrorists there. Oh hey, Saddam was a bad man, so we had to kill hundreds of thousands. Well, Bush is a terrorist, so how many tears will be shed if (heaven forbid) some poor schmuck whose family was killed in the war on "terra" blows up a bus in Washington in retaliation? You have to stop this shit somewhere.
When they went after Noriega the USA killed 2,500 civilians. Mission Accomplished! God is the American Nation fucked up.
Mon, 12/29/2008 - 11:18 — MountainMan23
Israeli-Firster: An American who values the Israeli Genocide of the Palestinians (code-named "defense of Israel") more than their love of American Democratic Principles.
Hillary Clinton, Al Franken, et al ...
Hillary et Al?
Hilary on Iran "we will obliterate them". Can`t wait for this ***** to stick her nose in the Middle East Conflict. She`s coming.
[Let's try to keep those insults gender-neutral, please. Site Monitor]
Where in that crap you pulled out of your ass did Obama state that he approved of this mass murder? Look idiot, lies and projection based on the preconceived dislike of a particular individual works mainly in Conservativeland...take your bullshit propaganda there.
I suggest you read. It's online everywhere. It's only propaganda "bullshit" if it isn't true.
Nice, solid argument. You must be a scientist.
Scientitian.
...supporting their Government's attacks on it's innocent neighbors. People worldwide support the U.S., and of course despise the acts of our Government.
Leftandleft
Obama, as this article makes clear, has certainly not come out and condemned the actions of Israeli aggression which has resulted in the unjustifiable deaths of innocent Palestinian civilians and the grievous wounding of many more Palestinians. Obama was not reticent in talking about how he would deal with the economy but yet has so far refrained upon commenting on the slaughter of innocent Palestinian civilians. It is not a stretch to wonder where Obama's hawkish sympathies lay.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/29/b...
"...but let us kill them, anyway."
This is so stupid it hurts.
It's sad to see that the Israeli government can find no other way to deal with their neighbor, in a civilized fashion.
Sure, rockets have been fired at Israel, and sure, we can trace a tit-for-tat between these people going back into the distant past.
But at some point, somebody has to inject some sanity into the situation, and to be quite bloody frank, the onus should NOT be on the Palestinians to right this situation. They are, for all intents and purposes, imprisoned and cut off from essential aid. What exactly do the Israelis expect them to do?
Bend over and take it like a bitch?
I wouldn't. And neither should they. If Israel wants a war, I'm sure they'll find one; and not just from Hamas.
that is dumb and dumberer.The onus is on everyone to restrain themselves. Demanding restraint from Israel while giving a free ride to Hamas is some sort of solution to this problem? I think not.
"We have nothing against the people of Gaza, but we are in a war to the death with Hamas. We are engaged in an all-out war against Hamas and its proxies."
That's like me saying, "I have nothing against the Israeli people; I just hate Israel."
I don't get it.
The entire world seems to hate the USA.....yet for the most part still love Americans.
It's the "guv mint" and the leaders that write the fascist policies that they hate....not us everyday average Americans.
That's true, but we do blame you for your apathy!!!
when I vote out the politicians I don't like, I participate in protests, etc.? Seriously, Edwin, take some lessons in logic.
I see, so America got to where it is today, how exactly?
produce huge B/W epics about the Gaza ghetto?
I'm shocked that I feel this way, but the sooner the U.S. shitcans our dear middle eastern "allies," the better off we'll be.
Israel seems to revel in perpdom.
There won't be any shitcanning of Israel. You can count the pols that don't kiss AIPAC's butt on one hand.
This secondary knee-jerk full support response for one side over the other is what causes war in the primary response where both sides are so sure they're pristine and the other the embodiment of evil.
Exactly.
It's nice to see that somebody gets it.
Neither side is without blame. Both sides would need to work to solve it. But we sure as bloody hell should not be satisfied, or convinced, with any explanation that places blame on one side only.
Neither side here has a monopoly on virtue despite whatever they may say. Perpetuating the never ending cycle of violence with more violence is madness. There is no way peace or conciliation will ever be achieved in this way. The Isreelis have already used violence in the past to obtain "peace" and their track record of success is zero, because it escalates the anger and resolve of their enemies.
Perhaps reconcilation would be difficult politically for both sides here but it's time to set aside foolish and worthless indulgence in violence and take on the more difficult but rewarding goal of peaceful coexistance.
It's certainly not a simple situation of right or wrong. Obviously, there's no easy answer. But my contention is that the left (who I agree with on most issues) knee-jerks against Israel and rarely lays any blame at the feet of the Palestinians. I can't take the time to survey this, but I wonder if anyone disagrees (i.e., find me a blog with a bunch of comments flogging the Palestinians or Hamas).
I do disagree.
While I have no citations for you, I would argue that most rational people on the left are well aware that violent acts by Hamas do not improve the situation of the Palestinians.
This is a no brainer.
It is not, however, justification for what Israel is doing.
We might, in fact, have well predicted the current desperation of the Palestinians, given the fact that they're now alienated in their own land, virtually imprisoned, cut off from supplies, suffering widely from malnurishment, etc. I could go on.
But hopefully you get the point here.
And that is that the Palestinians are acting dangerously, violently, and desperately because they are desperate.
After years of living in hell, a large portion of them are also mentally ill. Post traumatic stress disorder is par for the course in the west bank.
Does anyone really expect the Palestinians to have the power to extract themselves from this hell?
Exactly. The world and the Palestinian leadership has used them as pawns in a game. They are the losers. They lost their land, and they are losing their lives. Killing innocent women and children in Boston, would do nothing to the federal government of the US. Same thing applies there in my opinion.
my question is, what is Israel to do while their citizens are attacked, and in responding, consider the fact that Hamas sees capitulation as a sign of weakness and thus rationalization for their violent ways.
Israel has used these paltry and provoked "rocket" attacks to justify bombing trapped people killing hundreds?
I've asked you several times regarding Israeli casualties before Israel began this slaughter - or since. Why the avoidance?
goes to the least efficient killers? Interesting argument but I don't buy it.
At this point, Israel ought to do nothing in response.
There is no adequate solution to immediately ceasing the violence other than: ceasing the violence.
That means one side will take the nobler path, and simply stop taking part in it.
Seem foolish to you? Does that fly in the face of conventional wisdom?
How far has conventional wisdom got us so far? Are we on the right track?
Israel has ALL of the power here. Any violent acts that Hamas may do pale in comparison to Israeli responses, which have been disproportionate and tragic. Israel holds all of the cards here, and is acting like a spoiled child who knows nothing of compromise or compassion.
It stands to reason that the only side here that can make lasting changes in the situation is Israel. They have several options on how to proceed.
It seems that the favorite option thus far has been to bomb in response to any attack on Israel, regardless of the magnitude. Needless to say, I think this is foolish and does nothing but stoke the flames of hatred on the Palestinian side. Surely the Israelis know this. Perhaps having this enemy close by and conveniently penned in actually works to their advantage in some twisted way. I don't know.
Another option would be to do nothing. Bend over and take it just like the Palestinians have been forced to do over the past several decades. At least that would have some measure of poetic justice in it. I think this is what Israel should do in the short term.
In the longer term, I think Israel must work on bringing aid to the people who are suffering in the west bank.
Don't just offer to stop bombing the Palestinians, but make some gesture that says to the people:
"We realize we have made mistakes in the past. We're willing to go this far to mend it. It's up to you to work with us, to take some steps toward us as well, in order to bridge the chasm."
Once the genocide is halted, we may discuss that.
is actually Hamas's official policy. If it were Israel's I'd have to say they're not very good at it given their huge military preponderance.
I don't understand why Israel allowed Hamas to participate in the elections for the Palestinian authority if it had no intention of recognizing them or hdealing with them.
Israelis Get Truth About Gaza Attack
More at link.
When Pootin' invaded Georgia with a force much larger than the one Israel is using now, most of the people here blamed Georgia and BushCo. Interesting. Where was the outrage when Russia was doing exactly what Israel is doing now?
Don't get me wrong, I'm no Israel supporter and there are times when I wish we weren't chained to their hip. Most of our problems in the ME come from our "special bond" with Israel. In fact, sometimes I'd like to cut them loose and wish them good luck. But I couldn't help but notice the hypocrisy.
the situations are different.
Georgia vs. Russia was Georgia trying to crush a rebellion of break-away states (that were friends with Russia).
Georgia is not weak and thought it could settle the issue (bomb them into submission and grab land) before the Russians could respond.
Bad move.
Gaza vs. Israel is kinda like the Polish Ghetto (Gaza) vs the Wehrmacht (Israel).
Gaza is a refugee camp where the people are still willing to fight against an overpowering enemy that is trying to eradicate of them.
Gaza is virtually defenceless and might match a US militia in firepower (against all attempts from outside).
The rockets you hear about in the news are Katjusha rockets like those the Russians used in WW2 (1938). Small, low yield, unguided.
(look at the damage they have done so far and you can see just how effective they are)
You could compare them to Chechnya or to the WW2 resistance fighters.
that Israel's supporters can only point to atrocities committed by Hamas and the Palestines as justification for Israel's actions.
interesting that Israel's supporters have nothing to say of the good they're hoping to achieve.
at least Bush had the common decency to lie to us and proclaim that he was attempting to liberate Iraq.
Israel, and her supporters, can't even claim that much. Israel, and her supporters, are condoning mass murder.
Israel, and her supporters, are not defending themselves. they are counter-attacking and retaliating.
well, at least y'all are honest. they're lobbing bombs because they're angry. simple as that.
Israel is just taking a page from USA playbook. USA was "alledgedly" attacked by a majority of Saudis with boxcutters so the Neos went and murdered a million Iraqis to make them feel good.
Jews have no chance of payback with Germany and the Nazis over the Holocaust so they just vent on the people whose land they stole and have been unable to effectively eliminate ever since. Like America, they just pick on the weakest link. Just ask 3 to 4 million dead Vietnamese whose country was zero military threat to them too.
The NeoZionistCons probably cooked this up to hogtie Obama and make sure their imperialist wet dream lives. Im sure they have more surprises up their sleeves too before Jan 20th. Keep your guns clean folks. You may need them. I have said it a ton of times. I wouldnt take a breath until the Neos are long gone. They have shown they dont give a flying fuck about Americans or the Constitution or the Bill Of Rights. Im starting to worry about Obama anyways. There are more than a few bells going off in my head. Looks like another scam although i hope im wrong.
"Jews have no chance of payback with Germany"
If Israel attacked Germany.
I wonder who's we'd take in that one?
Actually, Germany is the second biggest financial supporter for Israel, second only to the U.S.
Although that may've changed with their absorption of the cash-poor East Germany, and the world-wide financial difficulties at present.
Israel over everyone else. Hell, if Israel attacked AMERICA, politicians would still take Israel's side.
Didnt that already happen ? USS Liberty i think it was.
That the US-Israel relationship was a lot different in '67 than it is now. Israel, at the time, was a military client-state of France. The US and Israel didn't cozy up until the early/mid 70's.
Germany should be divided. The Jewish exodus to Germany, and Palestine gets their stolen land back. I don't give a shit about some old moldy book called the bible. Germany fucked up, they should sacrifice the land. Or if we really loved them so much, we should give them a chunk of the US.
Why do you think all the euro countries after WW2 helped Israel?
Because they did not want the Jews back (remember, WW2 was not fought by the Allies to help the Jews) and the Jews taking land away from some defenceless Arabs was a pretty good solution.
Plus the Jews were fine with the solution as well as they could now take land they believed belonged to them anyway.
And anyone that criticizes them is an anti-Semite.
Now to Germany. While Germany did start the whole thing, not all of the Jews came from Germany. In every country they controlled (dunno about those of the other axis) the Germans did not have a hard time gathering the Jews, the locals more or less helped the Germans round up the Jews.
It finally gave many of the countries a chance to get rid of their undesirables.
So now you have a whole bunch of people from different countries who's only common item is their religion. And you give them a land you have to take from Germany and drive out the people there.
Not to mention what part of Germany? North? South? East? The part the Germans already lost after WW1 (and one of the reasons for this whole issue)?
And you actually think that would be any better?
Now I am not trying to defend anything or anyone but the root of the problem is that *no one wanted the Jews back* (and who would want to go back to a country that does not want them and/or even tried to kill them?).
What if the Native Americans finally decided to kick out the non-Native Americans from the US? Where would you go?
But the solution takes is equally poor and I honestly do not know how this could have been easily solved.
The people of Israel are doing *exactly* what was done to them in Europe.
That this fact is being ignored is the worst crime imaginable.
@Pro/Contra Jew (not by you, generally):
This must be the dumbest argument ever and so borderline brainless that I can hardly articulate my disgust.
If we were to look back at all that has happened in history, to lay out such a blanket statement is just ignorant.
The actions of a government can, but must not be, the will of the people.
It is always the same bs. Criticize the government of a few individuals and you automatically *hate* the people.
But hey, it worked in suppressing dissent in or against Germany, the US, Israel and any other place.
And as long as such works, we will never really be able be free of war, hate, murder and death.
jews have lived in israel proper for 3000 years
when you turn over your home to the native americans that resided there first...then maybe you have a right to talk
until then...stfu
... does this entitle a 47 year old Jew who's lived in Long Island for the last 32 years to kick a Palestinian out of Gaza/Palestine who's lived in Gaza/Palestine for the last 32 years?
Paging Joe
I suggest, in an effort of appeasement, they give your home state back to the Indians. Once you are displaced, please do come back to discuss.
his highness obummer just said on cnn that israels actions are okedoky with him!
at least Bush had the common decency to lie to us and proclaim that he was attempting to liberate Iraq.
Now we see why America can't stop playing Globo-cop, which we all denounce, until it's in support of our own positions.
(Although to be honest, no one's suggested America attack Israel, but withholding support, which might prove just as lethal.)
However, at the same time someone refered to the people being basically caged in, so even though Israel is targeting military targets, it sounds a little like one of those caged hunts that hunters sometimes have.
Dick Cheney quail hunting with his friends.
I thought it was dick.
Did he ever catch Dan?
Learned him how to spell potatoe.
I read an essay recently that imagined what things would be like if we had done absolutely nothing in response to 911. We would have avoided two wars, saved around two trillion dollars, over 1 million lives. We would have maintained most of our civil liberties.
So what would happen if we did not make this conflict a priority? I know you're saying we're sitting idly by right now, but why are we contributing to this conflict? So much money to Isreal. So much attention to the Palestinian plight.
What good is any of this if our nation collapses due to its in-ability to fix its internal affairs as a result of rubber-necking to every international crisis that pops up?
What is the root cause of their differences? A piece of land? Is it so small that they cannot share? We have them living here and there seems too be no great problem. No peaceful loving person, deserves too die.
you've solved the woes of the Middle East! Congratulations!
Although there's the obvious parallel that can be drawn between the Gaza quarters and old European ghettoes there's one that's not being discussed at all...
Partitioning towns, the solution being floated around for Iraq. What we're seeing now is a likely result of partitioning Iraq. It may give us the breathing spact to get us outta there, but not much more.
I think Israel is just testing Obama with this callous disregard for human life. They want to get a feel for what kind of leader he will be and how they can push his buttons for the next four years.
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