The Rachel Maddow Show: Red Alert
By Heather Wednesday Jun 03, 2009 8:00am
Rachel Maddow runs down the list of the people or groups that are praising the death of Dr. George Tiller and lauding his murderer Scott Roeder, as a hero. Among them:
Are babies today in Kansas safer today than they ere yesterday while George Tiller was alive and still taking in oxygen. Yeah, is the answer to the question. Maybe the fact that we have a lawless society that has not protected these babies from this infanticide created the Scott Roeders of the world, who in very John Brown-like fashion, illegally took matters into his own hands. Saying that if the system will not deal with an evil, then to Hell with the system.
Leach said when human law conflicts with God’s Laws, “we ought to obey God rather than man.”
He will not “advocate” that anyone go out and kill someone who performs abortions, but his “mind remains open on the question.”
“So while I am waiting for more dialogue, I must say that so far, the Bible discussion I have seen overwhelmingly supports anyone willing to sacrifice everything in order to physically stop an abortionist from killing thousands of babies,” he said.
Leach is no stranger to controversy. In the mid-90s, Leach’s association with the accused killer of a Florida abortion doctor helped persuade U.S. marshals to guard the Planned Parenthood clinic in Des Moines.
The Prayer and Action Network:
The only way to save hundreds, arguably thousands of unborn lives, not, has been to destroy abortion buildings or kill abortinists.
I wouldn't cry for him no more than I would if somebody dropped a rat and killed it.
Dan Holman: I was cheered by it because I knew that he wouldn't be killing any more babies. And I expect that would happen when all legal and moral -- legal ways of trying to stop it has been exhausted, as they have tried to prosecute him for giving abortions to people in violation of Kansas law.
......
Dan Holman: I believe that all abortionists are deserving of death, and they are not the only ones. There are politicians and judges and others who support this murder that are also deserving of death.
Drew Griffin: Would you care to name names, Dan?
Dan Holman: George Bush, Barack Obama. Any politician that gives our tax money to Planned Parenthood and organizations that kill babies are participating in the killing of innocent children deserve the same penalty.
Rachel notes that when Dr. David Gunn was shot dead in 1993 at least three of the people who publically supported Dr. Gunn's killing went on themselves to do time for anti-abortion, violent terrorism, including two murders. She asks if we're looking at the same pattern now.
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So if Holman says he thinks Obama should be killed, isn't that a threat against the President? Guess I'll have to alert the Secret Service.
How dare you say the radical right is a threat you partisan liberal hate-monger! They are the real Americans! You are a heathen traitor and a commie. :)
They should be treated as such.
These people think that the only reason for abortion is birth control.
I believe America would be a better place if their parents had used some form of birth control.
It is very evident that their or your parents did not care enough for you to teach you right from wrong, or give you enough mental stimulation to allow you to become a thinking adult.
If all you can follow are your own insane ramblings you should just STFU.
You barely have enough brain power to say something stupid much less the ability to make decisions for someone else.
republicanism is a mental illness. You and your party prove it every day!
I think they were being sarcastic..
Is not eligible for the death penalty in Kansas and can be paroled in 25 years!
I would consider a killing like this a "hate crime" with federal penalties??
Anyone have a better understanding of the law in a case like this?
As I said over at Mark of the Beast:
"And Annti you couldn't be more spot on that this is ABSOLUTELY A CASE OF TERRORISM!!! I don't know if you've heard but the prissy DA there in KS is saying it's a state matter and not a terrorist attack. YET in the recruiter shooting in AR they're saying not only is it a terrorist attack but they are going to charge the guy with 16 seperate counts of terrorism, one count for each bullet fired. How f*cked up is that??? Why wouldn't both cases be treated similarly?? Murdering people in their church is less terrifying to church goers then murdering a soldier at a recruiting station is to our military??? And if our military is more easily terrified then our church goers then wouldn't it make sense to send our church goers to fight our wars and let the military sit in pews rubbing their worry beads???"
If this isn't terrorism, what is?
"a policy or ideology of violence intended to intimidate or cause terror for the purpose of exerting pressure on decision-making by state bodies."
Not terrorism?
For all practical purposes, I don't consider Kansas a death penalty state. Yes, there's a death penalty on the books, but it's so difficult to apply, I'm not sure why they bothered.
For the death penalty to be applicable, the jury must found that the aggravating circumstances outweigh the mitigating. But there's no limit or restriction on facts that can be presented as mitigating, while there's a very short list of aggravating factors:
- the defendant was previously convicted of a felony in which he/she inflicted great bodily harm
- the defendant knowingly or purposely killed or created a great risk of death to more than one person
- murder for the purpose of receiving money or something else of monetary value
- hiring another person to commit the crime
- in order to avoid or prevent a lawful arrest
- crime committed in an especially cruel or atrocious manner
- while serving a prison sentence for a felony
- murdering a witness in a criminal proceeding
Kansas, however, DOES have a "hard 40" option on murder charges. It's pretty simple - minimum 40 years before eligibility for parole. I'm betting the prosecutor will try for that option.
The FBI is also involved in the investigation, so it remains to be seen if they can make a case for a hate crime prosecution.
I know Obama was harshly criticized for this statement but in my view the only thing he got wrong was he should have said "cling to their guns and religion."
How about "brandish" for guns and "distort" for religion.
I kinda like "cling." It makes them sound fragile and paranoid. It's much more accurate. "Brandish" makes them sound bold and "distort" implies they actually understand the message they are distorting.
you ain't so stupid.
I do OK for a git.
All in the Family, ya know. I'll be back if I can find the clip.
Operation Rescue redesigned their website and erased all posts made by Roeder. Sounds like they are trying to hide something. Troy Newman praised Paul Hill for murdering a doctor and declared him an innocent man for saving the unborn. Now he claims to denounce the same actions that he has a long history of approving of?
In Rachel's video she mentioned many people who are friends and associates of members of Operation Rescue, including the clinic bomber whose name was found in Roeder's car.
is the khalid sheikh mohammed for the abortion terrorists
Water board him!
It's the ticking timebomb scenario we've all been waiting for.
He knows others.
government and they swear allegiance to an imaginary foreign power.
Don't fall for that. He deserves every protection the
Constitution affords. He is a Terrorist for sure. But a
criminal, like all Terrorists, and deserves due process.
Link
That makes them traitors as well. I'm fine with calling them that.
you've actually got a good point on that "ticking tiembomb scenerio" thing. It really IS! And most likely to be the only kind we're ever likely to see.
I don't think this would prove our point about torture very well..
These woosies would cave, pee themselves, and snitch on everything they know the minute you put the blindfold on them.
On the other hand, Leadership said this best. It really is something best left to the right and their sociopaths to have hanging over them.
"Operation Rescue redesigned their website and erased all posts made by Roeder."
It should be mentioned that BillO didn't tell the Factor viewers that Roeder was involved with Operation Rescue and that they erased their website of all evidence of him. If a liberal website had done this sort of thing, BillO would be reporting it non-stop.
BillO also did not tell the viewers that the Operation Rescue phone number was found in Roeder's car.
BillO said that he gives the facts of the case but he left out these pertinent facts. BillO is a big fat liar.
They come out and say really radical stuff, and then when the heat gets to much, they back off and cleanse their sites...
What BRAVE and COURAGEOUS men they are. If they really had the courage of their convictions, they would stand by their statements...and/or completely denounce nutjobs like Roeder with no addendum.
While the people above have the demented mind of a sociopath they are void of the ( for lack of a better word) backbone to commit murder, they are the spineles dweebs who sit on the sidelines to cheer and egg on the people who will do what they can't. No , they will stand there and think they would do it but instead they would just pee on themselves from fright.
Sorta like Osama Bin Laden? Sending out the suicide bombers to do his dirty work? Even terrorism needs it's chickenhawks to send others to die for their causes.
Like orielly and the other rightwing hatemongers.
rachel maddow (and others) have framed this story correctly: these people are terrorists.
they have used fear for what politics couldn't accomplish. the rightwing (including many in the GOP and a lot of the far right christian evangelicals) are not only weak on protecting the nation, they are pro-nationalist terrorism and pro-religious terrorism.
There is absolutely no difference between these idiots and the Taliban. Whatever stupid thing the voices in their heads tell them must be obeyed.
Obama gives a speech at Notre Dame in which he urges reason and deliberation over the abortion issue, and the 'Christian soldiers' reply with murder.
Obama goes to the Middle East to begin the peace process, and Bin Laden feels compelled to issue a militant message.
The religious extremists cannot tolerate solutions based on reason.
While Christians are commiting acts of terror in our homeland, a Muslim store owner gave bread to a robber. Instead of hating the sinner, he took pity on him and gave the robber what was needed - a meal and a few dollars.
Incredible story.
Of course, you'll never find any Christians mentioning this when discussing Islam.......
isn't it?
PAH!
That's waaaaay past socialism!
That's blatant commie tree huggin homersechual type stuff!
};)>
The robber dropped the loaf of bread, picked up his baseball bat and the money and ran away. I'll bet he was a junkie. They'll do anything to get high.
the grocer had compassion for the would-be thief. That is one noblest sentiment.
MZ
It was touching and sad if it was wasted. Too bad junkies see kindness and compassion as weaknesses.
He is now a prime target for a "false flag" type hit.The loons are hopeing his good deed back fires on him.
So they can say...SEE we told you See we told ya
You will find republichristians doing.
They never think of anyone or any thing other then themselves!
republicanism is a mental illness!
Rachel Maddow runs down the list of the people or groups that are praising the death of Dr. George Tiller and lauding his murderer Scott Roeder, as a hero.
No, no, this can't be! BillO said Monday night that there wasn't anybody out there justifying Tiller's death. BillO wouldn't lie now, would he? He also missed all those comments at FOXNation.com that were happy about Tiller's death. Not much of an investigative journalist is he?
He's not much of a human being, either.
is that these people call themselves followers of Jesus. I believe Jesus would flip them the bird and say I know you not , Get thee behind me Satan
...there was a Satan in Jesus' time (assuming he ever really existed). Satan was the creation of the Catholics to scare people into believing in their god.
came to murdering people. God was a real killing machine.
In some sects of Judaism, Lucifer didn't betray God, but was instead God's little commissar who went around challenging people's loyalty to the Party... er I mean God.
dog, I almost always never say.
no cry?
Is Jesus steering?
"Happy he shall be that taketh the little ones and dash them on the rocks"? Or something to that effect
I think it was Stalin, wasn't it?
In Psalms KJV
"137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Abortion the bible way
that's the bartender's handbook. "Little ones" refers to olives and "rocks" refers to ice. Jeeeez, I bet you drink beer!
MZ
I know for a fact that terrorism, even verbal terrorism, isn't protected speech. The fact that Bush cronies still permeate the government is undeniable when the FBI refuses to investigate a man who has been arrested over and over for violent acts against clinics until he commits murder. I hate to use the word but Obama must purge these people from government. Give them a nice pension or whatever but get them out of policy implementation and law enforcement.
...the FBI doesn't make the decision to investigate something like this. Has to come from the Justice Department, so you know how far that will go.
For their part, I'm sure the FBI is watching these groups as closely as they can.
Lets just keep walking. Doing something about it might be..... unpleasant.
Put them all on the Terrorist Watch List.
Put them all under surveillance.
One slip and throw them in the cooler.
Link
Hey leadership, congrats on going to college and your new blog! Wish you the best of luck. I got a degree in English but never was a very good student. Hopefully your fellow classmates aren't as apathetic as mine were in the early 90's.
Maybe we have to take them out before they take us out!? Think of the children!!!
I know what your saying. As an atheist gay-supporting, pro-choice liberal it's a bit scary but once I heard a wise saying that I prefer to live by: "Do unto others as you'd have done unto you." Maybe if we could get that quote around to more people things would be better.
I like to refer to that as the "Atheist's Commandment"
All of them...
As for David Leach (appropriate last name for a terrorist sympathizer) many of the old Christian thinkers, like Thomas Aquinas did think that human governments should follow Natural Law, they were also opposed to acts of terrorism like this.
This is all the more reason for those on the left to be armed. The terrorist and the loons are never going to give up their firearms and the government won't take them away. For the sake of defending one's self and those around them, it would be prudent to maintain parity with the terrorists. You don't want to show up at the terrorist's shooting spree with a pen knife. First thing I do here in Ca after I pass the Bar exam is apply for a CCL and buy a .44 magnum.
This was an act of terrorism.
He assassinated Dr. Tiller AT CHURCH, in front of the entire congregation in order to terrify them.
He should be treated as a domestic terrorist IMHO.
Scott Roeder and Timothy McVeigh is the body count.
Said on Maddows show Monday?
Oh yes.
The only difference between xtian and muslim extremists, is the 8000 miles between them.
Or something like that.
One prays towards Mecca and the other prays towards a cross.
Another major difference is that Mulsims aren't always in your face with their religion like Christians are, be it on TV/radio, or on bumper stickers, or in "cutesy" phrases on tee shirts.
What other religion is so obnoxious about themselves in this way?
And when you call them on it, they cry persecution!
GAH!
Feckin sunday xtians!
Absolute hypocrites!
A discussion I was having on a message board once where one member cried that Christians were being persecuted. That was one of the few times I wished I could reach though the internet and pimp slap someone.
[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgpXi-3yHyU ]
Amended: Warning!! Graphic content...
that's some seriously fucked up shit there.
I don't wear the cutesy Tees myself (@ 4X they're too expensive!) but my wife loves them.
Do people really find them so obnoxious? Why?
I find them obnoxious when they're final in their cutesy little messages...Like "Real Men Love Jesus"
That one makes me want to smash things.
It's the holier than thou, I'm better than you attitude that goes along with those shirts that makes me wanna puke.
Here where I live, most of the people wear Jimmy Buffet shirts, which is FAR worse, than any cutesy Jesus shirt.
I do see alot of pro Jesus bumper stickers here.
I see pro-life, McCain/Palin, Promise Keeper, Teabaggers stickers usually all on one vehicle drivin 45 in the friggin fast lane with their left turn signal on being driven by a some old fart from BFE middle America comin down here to park their RV's and not spend a damn DIME in the local economy, and that just gives me MORE reasons to curse their primitive beliefs, and their gas hog RV AND their thinkin they're doin the locals a favor by comin down here and drivin like fuckin assholes...
Whoa...okay...only SLIGHTY off tangent there.
on the road with Jesus saves etc. bumpers stickers on them,That gives me a big laugh
Today I saw a car with a sticker that said:
"If You Can't Stand Behind Our Troops Feel Free To SDtand In Front Of Them"
Another on the same car said:
"Berean Baptist Church"
I pray that this is a mixed message.
I'm afraid if you went to parts of Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, you'd find fellow Muslims who had much the same to say about their radical religious bretheren.
Total Evil, still think CHRISTIAN HATE MONGERS need Tax Exempt status. Further proof Christianity is a FALSE Religion and only deals in HATRED.
Here in Alabama the rightious christians tried their best to get us public hangings and floggings,We did get hitching post and chain gangs
"I'm more of a hate...stylist!"
Tom Hanks via "Punchline"
are not just the equivalent of the Taliban; they are Osama Bin Laden's "Fifth Column". They think they are the enemy of OBL, but they do his bidding (to de-stabilize America and make it a more dangerous place) and they do it for free. OBL thinks: with enemies like these, who needs friends?
you're 100% right.
You would think Osama and Bush and the christians were working together
that were the case.
But that makes ENTIRELY too much sense to be the case.
Regina Dinwiddie:
"I wouldn't cry for him no more than I would if somebody dropped a rat and killed it."
Gotta love those compassionate conservatives. Gee, I hope that she's single.
Isn't is? when someone's last name really does give you a clue..
Dinwiddie...Dimwitted...
Just saying.
...in church and these sick bastards consider him a hero.
These are the descendants of those "Christians" who lynched and burned black people alive on Saturday nights then faithfully making Sunday morning service the next day.
they're terrorists using Christ to justify their blind hatred and blood lust.
taking the Lord's name in vain. "Jesus made me do this", they will say. Get your asbestos suits ready for the afterlife, wingnuts.
That is just their cover,And to keep the gullible sheep in line,See Rev.Haggard,Cardinal Law etc.etc.etc.
"Only Sheep need a shepherd" :-)
thank you for that.
I'm not a Christian, I'm more agnostic/atheist, but damn if I don't act more Christian than alot of these assholes who call themselves Christians.
Pseudo-xtains, sunday xtians...xtians of convenience...what ever...but from their actions, they're surely NOT true Christians.
I can easily get along with someone that actually holds true to Christs teachings.
They're usually not the kind to try and convert anyone.
I wouldn't be surprised if Reverend Fred Phelps and his pack of ghouls show up at Dr Tiller's funeral to taunt the Tiller family and the other mourners.
Just imagine how happy those 'christian' wackos will be when they have a whole new group of people to hate besides homosexuals.
Jeebus, people really scare me sometimes.
lots of colleagues, friends and family are goin to be there.
I'm concerned another fake-ass xtian is gonna try something big.
I'd hire a few armed guards. I wouldn't put it past the faux Christians, or someone from Faux News to try to crash it and make a big scene.
My husband got an upclose look at Freddie and the rest of the Phelps cult..at the funeral for a young local soldier who was killed recently.
This man's widow had 3 small children. Dealing with the Phelps cult is horrendeous under the circumstances that they are outsiders coming in and makind hateful horrible spectacles.
In Witchita, Phelps is a local. Dr. Tiller's funeral is going to be a awful. My sincerest kind thoughts to his family and friends. Things are going to get really ugly in Kansas.
...emailed 3 of the 5 of these individuals featured in Rachel's story. F these people and their complete disregard for their fellow citizens and the law of the land.
Though unfortunately I myself believe you'll find...More often then not. That they believe their biblical Law(s), supersedes U.S. Law(s). I've seen it stated many times for which I have concerns.
Edited:
But God's law says to obey secular authority (man's law).
I will never be ordered by law to break a commandment. But there is no room in that to take the law into my own hands.
DemoChristian, I wasn't aware of the fact that... as you say - "But God's law says to obey secular authority" though I did notice you included - "(man's law)" in ending that sentence.
Does it really say "secular authority"? I wish all the best too you and yours.
PS. I'm very interest if it truly states that... Thanks in any case.♥
Check out also:
Ephesians 6:5
The Bible is very clear on this.
The way I read it myself I did not notice a reference too secular or secularism? It appeared too me to be on the topic of [Slaves and Masters]. What I got out of that, was an instruction too Master(s) and Slave(s) on how to act accordingly.
Once again thanks for your time... If you can spare anymore, could you please explain too me in layman's terms what portion of that implies "secular adherence"?
I quit school in the 10th year and I was never particularly fond of my English classes. :-)
Amended" Hold on... I didn't check out "Romans 13:1" yet! :-/
Romans 13:1
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ
The passage from Ephesians is one of many where the Bible tells us to be obedient to those placed in positions of authority over us.
In other passages the Bible details the responsibilities of those in authority to those placed in their care.
In using the relationshap of slave/master these scriptures were illuminating a relationship common for the time. But the truth is there for all times.
One of my favorite debates with fellow Christians :
"What were the Christian duties of the people under Nazi rule?"
According to Thomas Aquinas, humans laws (therefore human governments) must be obeyed if violating them caused scandal or disturbance.
I'm sure assassinating someone in the middle of religious services counts as a disturbance.
Other thinkers, based on Romans 13, argued that God ordained governments to keep people in line, and that included secular authority.
It's rather unfortunate that the "Christian" thinking of today is a far cry from men like Augustine and Aquinas.
"Other thinkers, based on Romans 13, argued that God ordained governments to keep people in line, and that included secular authority.
What and or who, is [secular authority.]?
If "God ordained governments" why did he/her create "Hanging Chad(s)"? :-)
The pesky free will allows us to reject God, accept God, sin and create Republican victories from hanging chads.
I hate that.
Thank you so much, for your time and cordial colloquy... I've enjoyed it very much. ♥
Hope to see ya around... surfs up! :-)
You have to look at the context.
The time that Aquinas was writing the idea of Divine Right of Kings was on it's way out. At the same period there was also a movement to separate the authority of the Pope with the authority of the state. Martin Luther even argued against the church legislating laws. So you look at the context, secular authority would be the state.
When it comes to interpreting the Bible, I'd put more stock in what men like Aquinas said as opposed to what the dingbats of today have to say.
I am sometimes convinced that the supposed "Leaders" of American Christianity are more Elmer Gantry than Martin Luther.
MegaChurches and Prosperity Preachers do more damage to Christians than any same sex marriage could.
Is experiencing Idiocracy right now.
Steve Deace responded right away to my harshly worded criticism with four words "Thanks for the tolerance".
I replied back to this cat and said I only mirrored the amount of tolerance he was showing for the our laws. Oh well.
"Render unto Cesar that which is Cesar's, and render unto God that which is God's." An early suggestion to separate church and state?
Jesus was NOT a political figure!
He did NOT advocate political solutions.
"Render unto Cesar that which is Cesar's...." is not necessarily a political solution, in my opinion. It can be construed as a very anti-political. Leave to this world that which is of this world(do what you have to for the sake of earthly government) and deliver to God that which is his.(take care of you immortal soul)
I believe that Jesus was a very political figure, whether he wanted to be or not. That is the nature of this world. The history of the area at the time, and his movements and people he associated with put a bit of an edge on Jesus that has some political tinge.
My own view of Jesus is that he knew the world he was living in, and had to operate in it on many levels, just as other sons of God have. (Buddha, Lao Tsu, Krishna, Gandhi, MLK....) He had an appeal to the oppressed and the poverty stricken, because he was one of them, and offered them hope for something better.
People forget that Jesus was not a Christian, he was a Jew. The Jews were an oppressed people, and Jesus gave the hope (God's work), without inciting insurrection (Man's concerns). The Romans feared, and the Sanhedrin so desperately feared insurrection that they gave Jesus to the Romans as a sacrifice.
Paul,(who never met Jesus and had a religious "conversion") is the historical source of Ephesians and Romans. They are not, technically, the words of GOD, or Christ, but the inspired words of Paul. Many of them contradict the things Jesus was supposed to have said in the Gospels.
Actually, Jesus was made into a religious figure, hundreds of years after his death.
Drop the religious dogma, and what you have is the story of a man very much interested in political change.
The Prayer in Action newsite says, "The only way to save hundreds, arguably thousands of unborn lives, now, has been to destroy abortion buildings or kill abortionists."
So these people expound bombing and murder as a way to achieve their political goals. True TERRORISTS as defined by the Department of Homeland Security and the Patriot Act.
I say arrest them. Especially the guy who threatened that the President should be killed, Dan Holman.
They are inciting their dimwitted followers to mahem and murder and should be arrested. This is not only Treason, but Terrorism.
Though I know in KY a good reason could be made that it's because their Dept. of "Homeland Security" claims they need gods help to protect their citizens. :-/
And there might be a conflict of interest(s), I would surmise?
Red Alert, so who's coming
The British,
The Indians,
The Commies
Or the republicans?
But they are dangerous loons
My vote is for the aliens.
The aliens are coming.
And it doesn't matter whether or not they are legal because there are no fences in outer space.
I don't care which of them are coming. I already have three 13 years olds planned for.
When aliens visit you ARE the supper and they will stay as long as they want, thank you.
despite my past posts on Congressman Dennis.
.
Leach said when human law conflicts with God’s Laws, “we ought to obey God rather than man.”
Ha! That's rich.
If that's the case,mankind has a lot to answer for pal,starting with--if you like--"Thou Shalt Not Kill" including,but by no means limited to, hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis.
As I've gotten older I've found myself struggling more and more with the concept of Abortion,and I don't like the idea of life being terminated.That said,men have no right to decide what a women does with her body.I can't respect a group of people more interested in the rights of the "pre-born" than young women struggling with the toughest decisions of their lives.
Don't they argue that American law was based on God's law?
Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.
Mark 12:17 (KJV)
Thou shalt not kill.
Vengence is Mine sayeth The Lord.
For the Ant- Abortion/ Pro killing "Abortionists" crowd, this means that you are usurping the functions of Diety. You are pretending to be God. That is Anti-Christ.
And no, America is not a Christian nation. If it were, whose brand of Christianity would hold sway? Limbaugh's? Hannity's? Romney's? Obama's? Mine?
Is a lot of moral ideas (like not killing, not ripping people off) are universal. If I killed someone in Shogunate Edo I'd get punished just the same as if I killed someone in Christian Constantinople. So these these faux Christians go around saying "oh our laws are based on the Ten Commandments" and neglect the fact that these laws are universal.
Another thing they point out is a lot ideas that made it into the constitution came from people like John Calvin. But the ideas themselves aren't inherently religious. John Calvin had his idea of total depravity, that a person's entire being was corrupted by sin, but the idea that some people were just plain bad was around before Christianity.
But has Rachel adopted a more 'conventional' look? I find her tomboy look (much less makeup and less produced hair) more sincere and credible.
There you go--judging a woman on how she looks and not what she says. What is your problem? And what is a "conventional look," anyway?
Have any of the men accused or convicted of killing people associated with abortion practices fathered children of their own?
►[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Jennings_Hill ]
I'm not sure if they are his biological children though?
[Children→ → → Justin, Gloria and Joy Hill]
How many of them pay their child support?
custodial or noncustodial figures? :D
With this latest rise of Christanic terrorism, why hasn't the Obama regime elevated the national threat level to RED? We have insane Christian terrorists and terrorist simpathizers on the Republinazi extremist right spewing violent hate and yet the Obama regijme hasn't taken the country to a secure domestic safety level.
.......why these people are so passionate about abortion? I'm convinced that most would not have this same passion about another person outside the womb; probably not even for their own family members?
What is it about a collection of cells inside a womb that drives these people nuts?
When you believe...
Amended: → :-/
Genesis 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed:
for in the image of God made he man.
it's the barefoot and pregnant thing.
plus a lot of it does stem from Frank Sheaffer's father. Frank Sheaffer gave a really good interview on Rachel's show on Monday.
He said a lot of things that put all of this issue with Dr. Tiller into perspective.
The Sheaffer's, Reagan, Falwell and Pat Robertson started this nasty ball rolling. Previous to that, the Abortion debate was fairly civil, if a little passionate. It was the religious right, who saw this wedge as the way to gain political power in a nation that was never more than 2 percentage points apart on the abortion debate.
The "moral majority" never was either, and they wanted power, not for their "ideas" about God, but because they wanted a "Christian" nation to replace the nation that was getting increasingly free thinking and left leaning.
My uncle used to say, "The Fat White Guys aren't about to let the great unwashed run things. It'll mean they might actually have to work." (uncle was libral..but also, fat and white.)
Pro lifes DO have a choice. They CAN follow God's law in their OWN lives. They can choose NOT to get an abortion. They can follow their God's law.
I remember a big law "Thou shall not kill". That meant anyone, preborn or born.
Roeder didn't sacrifice anything. Dr. Tiller made the ultimate sacrifice. And these creeps are nothing more than cowards getting the mentally imbalanced to do their dirty work for them.
Acting outside the law doesn't mean society is lawless. We do have laws. They say a woman can get an abortion. Period.
Roeder is the lawless one.
These people are going around like a lynch mob, killing good doctors who care about women.
Perhaps these people need some graphic pictures of the fetuses who wouldn't make it, with their organs outside their little bodies, or a missing spine, to bring it home. Many of Dr. Tiller's patients WANTED these babies, WANTED them to be healthy, HOPED they would be OK. And the babies were not. It's tragic and these nutjobs only compound the tragedy.
Why don't these nutjobs go home? So many people are in pain and they are dancing on graves.
In fact, Tiller has been investigated for YEARS by various politicians trying to score points with the more extreme right-wingers. After those years of trying, he was charged with 17 misdemeanor counts that basically had to do with paperwork and technical violations. And he was acquitted of those.
What I'd like to see pointed out more often is that, like most doctors that perform abortions, Dr. Tiller's practice was NOT an "abortion clinic." Hell, the man couldn't have stayed in business doing nothing but late term abortions, there's just not enough of them.
Someone should ask these goofballs talking about the "lives saved" by killing Dr. Tiller if they'd like to address the lives lost. Not just the woman who might die without the late term abortion, either. What about the babies who might not be born because Dr. Tiller is not there to provide prenatal care to their mothers? He's not there to deliver those babies. Shoot, Dr. Tiller isn't there to help with infertility issues, to be able to advise women who want children and haven't been able to get pregnant.
I know the more psychotic members of the conservative community won't get it, but it's possible that there are more children that won't be born without Dr. Tiller than there are abortions that will never happen.
Reslugs only love the fetus, but then no help or handouts for the poor, innocent baby once born.
The O'Reilly Factor!
http://esupport.fcc.gov/complaints.htm
Let's overwhelm the FCC with complaints. Tell the FCC to stop FOX NEWS from inciting violence against law abiding citizens.
“So while I am waiting for more dialogue, I must say that so far, the Bible discussion I have seen overwhelmingly supports anyone willing to sacrifice everything in order to physically stop an abortionist from killing thousands of babies,” he said."
As a recovering Roman Catholic, having been indoctrinated by the church for a good part of my life, I don't ever remember seeing a passage in the bible that relates to anything NEAR what Leach is saying ... Gee, I wish he would have provided it, I'd really like to see that one ...
Oh, that's right. There ISN'T anything in the bible that comes remotely close to Leach's silly statement. It's just something he pulled out of his ass ... how typical of a Christian Terrorist.
"Thou Shalt Not Kill"
It doesn't have a disclaimer, "Except in cases where you feel that it's justified to kill."
Are they following the Bible? Or are they making up God's laws as they go along.
We need more news stories to educate people on the hard decisions involved in getting abortions.
The image is, these are people using abortion as contraception.
Many of us know the truth is far from that. A commenter on here yesterday talked of a woman who found out her baby had no brain and severe spinal abnormalities.
We also know that less than 1% of abortions are considered late-term.
We also know the painful decisions and humiliation women go through.
We also know the complex legal issues making abortion illegal would bring up (was it abortion or a miscarriage? is the mother a murderer if she smokes and causes miscarriage? should IVF be banned because embryos are wasted?)
People need to focus less on the reactions and more on putting a HUMAN face on this issue. The really difficult moral choices INDIVIDUALS have to make.
I'd like Mr. Leach to point to where in God's Law either as espoused by Jesus or as dictated to Moses where said that Human life was sacred or that fetuses were fully human. The only relevant reference in Biblical law pretaining to abortion implies that killing a fetus is not the equivalent to killing a human since the penalty is merely civil not capital. See Exodus 21. Harming or killing the mother leads to reciprical punishment (eye for an eye and so on) but causing a premature birth optionally can lead to a fine (if the father requires payment). If the Right Wing can find a point in Biblical Law (not prophetic poetry) please show me.
Until then I submit you've come to worship an idol the sanctity of Humanity. More of those other God's that creator God rails against through his prophets then son throughout the Bible.
These radical Christians make me sick. Really-they do! They also worry me! Just remember that these creeps believe in having lots and lots of guns, don't believe in laws that they don't like, and that should send a chill or two down your spine.
now to burn people at the stake
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