New Rule: If You're Going to Have a Rally, You May as Well Make it About Something
Bill Maher wasn't too happy with Jon Stewart for playing the false equivalency game at the Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear he and his cohort Stephen Colbert held last month in his New Rules segment on this week's Real Time.
I agree with Bill completely when it comes to his remarks about Jon Stewart. As much as I love both Jon and Stephen for what they do most days on the air and as much as I enjoyed the rally for the most part, I think the criticism was spot on. We've been pushed way too far to the right and the notion of "centrism" when it amounts to corporatism does not equal a "fair and balanced" anything.
Maher: And finally New Rule, if you’re going to have a rally where hundreds of thousands of people show up, you might as well go ahead and make it about something. With all due respect to my friends Jon and Stephen, it seems to me that if you truly wanted to come down on the side of restoring sanity and reason, you’d side with the sane and the reasonable and not try to pretend that the insanity is equally distributed in both parties.
Keith Olbermann is right when he says he’s not the equivalent of Glenn Beck. One reports facts. The other one is very close to playing with his poop. And the big mistake of modern media has been this notion of balance for balance’s sake, that the left is just as violent and cruel as the right, that unions are just as powerful as corporations, that reverse racism is damaging as racism. There’s a difference between a “mad man” and a “madman”. […]
But the message of the rally as I heard it was that if the media would just stop giving voice to the crazies on both sides then maybe we could restore sanity. It was all nonpartisan and urged cooperation with the moderates on the other side, forgetting that Obama tried that and found out, there are no moderates on the other side. […]
You see Republicans keep staking out a position that is further and further right and then demand Democrats meet them in the middle, which is not now the middle any more. That’s the reason health care reform is so watered down. It’s Bob Dole’s old plan from 1994. Same thing with cap and trade; it was the first president Bush’s plan to deal with carbon emissions. Now the Republican plan for climate change is to claim it’s a hoax. But it’s not. […]
Two opposing sides don’t necessarily have two compelling arguments. Martin Luther King spoke on that Mall in the Capitol. He didn’t say “Remember folks, those southern sheriffs with the fire hose and the German Shepherds, they have a point too. No. He said “I have a dream” and they have a nightmare.
This isn’t team Edward and team Jacob. Liberals like the ones on that field must stand up and be counted and not pretend that we’re as mean or greedy or short sighted or just plain batshit as they are.
And if that’s too polarizing for you and you still want to reach across the aisle and hold hands and sing with someone on the right, try church.
Bill has on the biggest ass hole existing in CA today...and I would LOVE to have seen his mug when he was referring to his fascist party of nutballs.
Yes Bill...you are right on. Sometimes I know your comments are for laughs..but this time I think you were just showing the hypocrisy of this whole f*cked up nation of idiots. We truly are getting what we deserve. A nice repukkke sweep in Congress and in the governorships...and we the people VOTED for them....one and all. We are one sick nation under shit.
Bill Maher is 100% right about this. I believe that Stewart and Colbert are exploiting the Progressives and pandering to the wing-nuts.
"War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength" .. George Orwell
No, in retrospect, I believe they were signaling to their corporate masters that they won't go too far with this "rally". As such, it's pretty fair to say that they won't be getting the Keith Olbermann treatment.
If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders.
George Carlin
No, they are trying to reach the vast majority of both wings that aren't nuts.
I hear lots of people criticize Jon Stewart for his not being political enough or being too political. Or his trying to balance things or his...whatever.
Ya know what I'd say to Jon Stewart if I met him..."Fuck'em they're not funny enough to listen to." I've had similar criticisms of Jon in the past and his softball clown approach but this is how this guy wants to do his show. And lots of people like to watch it...why should Jon give a Fuck what people think if he's still entertaining people.
So Fuck'em...keep doing a quality show and being goddamn funny. That's way more than most any internet commenting retard like myself can do.
Meh
Stuart and Coulbert are comedians not commentators. Its just that the "news" outlets are mostly so pathetic that the two of them do better interviews and more insightful comments but ultimately they are still comedians not responsible for pushing anyone's agenda. And I think they are funnier on their worst days then Maher is on his best.
....you're wrong. Bill Maher is actually a very funny guy and is often times much more pointed in his critiques than Stewart (I don't watch Colbert so I can't speak to him). Stewart is more populist than Maher so maybe you prefer that style of comedy. That's fine, we all have our likes and dislikes. But you're being too simplistic if you want to write off Stewart and Colbert as simply comedians at the end of the day. You know as well as I that with the 4th estate shirking it's responsibilities, it leaves a huge vacuum for guys like Stewart and Colbert to step in and gain credibility for news reporting and that means something. There was that poll a year ago or so that said people trusted Stewart to deliver the news more than other, so-called legitimate news anchors. That means something. It's not Stewart's responsibility to be a reporter but he certainly takes his job seriously enough and so he has credibility that way. So when criticism comes their way, I think it's appropriate. And Stewart's recent move towards the middle and allowing the right's insanity to have a measure of his support gives it way more credibility than it deserves. It also feels a bit like a betrayal. Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity use their shows to spew ridiculous vile lies and republican talking points and when they get criticized, they hide behind their title as commentator instead of saying they are reporters. True, they are commentators but does that mean they get to say bullsh-t without reprisal? I think not. And Stewart shouldn't be given any leniency in the same way. He's established himself as a thoughtful social satirist that does his homework. If he wields a scalpel at the world's issues, so can a scalpel be used on him when he falters. And he's been faltering lately.
That interview with Obama last week before the Tuesday election was abysmal. He treated the president as if he was just another guest and did hard critical questioning, days before the election. To some that may prove he's unbiased. Obama has a lot to account for. I'm not happy with his continuing Bush's wars, the warrantless wiretapping and his constant attempts to appease the right and govern as a centrist. But the alternative is to let the tea party republicans who have no agenda other than to extend tax cuts and somehow balance the budget and 'take the country back' wards. So Stewart won't even give the sitting President the common courtesy of helping to promote the positive policies he's enacted? I'm getting disenchanted with Stewart and his desire to be loved by middle america. Or has he just gotten so popular that he's above it all and has forgotten the fact that there is a difference between sound sober thinking and the tea party. Bill Maher got it right.
Maher just didn't understand what Jon was saying?
Obviously the right is being more vicious and vitriolic than the left and Stewart tees off on the GOP an awful lot (as well he should). But his show isn't about making political points, its about pointing out the absurd.
But this rally was about something else. This rally was pointing out that the volume needs to be toned down. Not necessarily equally, but it still needs to be toned down.
The point of the rally was to beg for cooler minds to prevail. And there were a few angry liberal signs aimed at Fox and Beck and there were some 'Keep your government out of my X' signs, but those were the exception, rather than the rule.
I believe once cooler minds prevail, the Democrats will be able to push their agenda (which, to any GOPs reading this, is reform rather than expansion) and we will all have the freedom of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
But pushing a political agenda isn't what the rally was about. It was about not mocking smart people for being smart, not referring to successful people as 'elites', and not putting the football quarterback in charge when it should really be the captain of the chess team.
I think the perception of equivalency (sp?) is only in the minds of people who are seeking it out.
I totally understand your conclusion. Here's where I differ. On the video screen, playing clips of MSNBC hosts alongside those of FOX is to my mind, a false equivilancy. I also understand a major part of his message was to "tone" it down, but if toning it down doesn't change the content, then really, what's the point? And, if that's what the message was, tone, without differentiating the content of the messages, then your doing a diservice. And if your not differentiating, then the assumption is the messages are equal. Which they are not.
He's gotta focus and stay on his message, which was about tone. That's why the thing was so effective. If he had talked about content as well, this thing would have been "just another liberal rally" and it wouldn't have as much impact.
Think about when he went on crossfire. He didn't say, "Stop hurting America. But Begala, I agree with you most of the time. Go team blue! But the show still sucks." He left all the left and right stuff out of it as much as he could, and just focused on how the show was a shallow shouting match without substantive, nuanced, informative debate.
This was the same thing, only the target was not "crossfire" but all three cable news channels. He didn't say they all sucked equally, but he did say they all suck. If that's an "equivalence", it's a true one, not a false one.
I said this even before the rally when Stewart, in announcing it conflated the teabaggers on the right to the Truthers and Code Pink on the left. There was simply no comparison and to imply this in his speech was a huge swing and a miss. In this case it wasn't about whether it was funny or not, it was about the fact that it's a bald faced fucking lie. And I defy anyone to dispute that! As I've also said, I too love Jon and Stephen but, to compare the left to those loonies is a bridge too far. Where are the Dem politicians who have embraced the Truthers and Code Pink? Where are they?
If the message is "everyone needs to conduct their politics like reasonable human beings", that might work. If the message is "the right needs to conduct their politics like reasonable human beings" then the left will nod their heads and the right will just look at him as a partisan on the other side. That message will fail to accomplish anything.
This is what I thought the rally would be all about. Though I found the rally highly entertaining,what I thought would be addressed,wasn't. ...Just what are you watching and listening to,Jon?
what will Stewart's response be to the Republicans who have all repeatedly stated publically that they will not compromise? And how will he compare these statements to a single Democratic elected official? How? It's time to jump off that fence Jon and state clearly that the right is batshit crazy and the left is NOT!
Sometimes you get that jerk who drives up the shoulder and cuts in at the last minute. But he is rare, and he is scorned, and he should not be re-elected to congress.
BRAVO! Thank you, Bill Maher. After reflecting on my attendance at - and the meaning of - Jon Stewart's rally last weekend, I couldn't agree more. The left-wing isn't batshit insane. And I'm not saying that because they are "my team," but because the left's arguments and grievances and positions stand firmly within the realm of sanity. George W. Bush, my almost any measure, truly is a war criminal. The United States truly is an empire. Corporations really do have an inordinate (and almost absolute) amount of influence over Washington. This is not akin to saying that Barack Obama is a secret Muslim socialist bent on subverting the Constitution; it is merely stating a well reasoned and factually supported conclusion.
The plunge into utter insanity has been a right-wing phenomenon. Period. A restoration to sanity is almost inevitably a realization that the left-wing is right about numerous issues.
Thank you again, Bill Maher. I'm tired of pundits and commentators beating around the bush, equivocating, and pretending like both sides are equally at fault.
conversation, the GOP has slunk in and now comes back to power without ever having to answer for their crimes. Crimes that they will now continue. I smell Rove, again.
that the rally was about apportioning equal blame to both the left and right wasn't paying attention. More accurately it was about not trying to fight crazy with crazy. The vast majority of the people who were there had a very pronounced left wing bias and from personal experience I'd say most got it. Sadly the truthers were not among them.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
But after being called clueless for my stated position (earlier) let me continue. If anyone thinks it's a friggin joke where our country is headed then go ahead and laugh. Maybe Lewis Black could have done better, ya think? But that's not Jon's deal. His deal was to falsely claim an equivilancy that doesn't exist to the entire friggin world right before an election. And we already know the american voter is none to bright, right?
I found it astounding, a waste of human capital. But that's just me. Let's keep making jokes about left and right being equal while Rhandi Rhodes receives bomb threats and Keith Olbermann gets suspended.
It was, for a rather inocuous gathering, quite distasteful. But that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
I merely said that I disagreed with you. I think many people are seeing a false equivalency where none exists. It wasn't about what anybody believes. It was about how those beliefs are expressed.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
an earlier thread. But I'd like to add one more thing. I thoroughly enjoyed the show. It was fun, lighthearted, had a rather mild, easy going message - right up unitl the end. It's just my opinion if that's how Jon chose to close his show, he could have done it in a much more constructive manner.
"Keith Olbermann is right when he says he’s not the equivalent of Glenn Beck. One reports facts. The other one is very close to playing with his poop."
Man smart, woman smarter.
That's true. But you're better off just reading decent newspapers.
you get away with lying! Why is it so hard for some of you apologist to admit that. No one says they're not funny but, you don't get to tell lies. Unless you're fox news!
What did he lie about? Cable news sucks. He said they sucked. That's a true statement. Some people seem to think he should have pointed out that some channels suck less than others. Maybe he should have, but not saying something you wanted him to say isn't "lying".
Digby just posted about this too: http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2010/11/new-ru...
I commented over there, and what the hell, I'm just gonna paste it in here too:
nice post.
Man smart, woman smarter.
Maher is uninformed and unable to fully dispute much of the bullshit spewed by his righwing guest.
...and it makes me want to tear my hair out...not that he should just invite people to fight with them...but how about doing the HOMEWORK...there was something he said last night that was a perfect example...but, of course being an OLD pre-Alzheimers lady, I can't remember it...
Maybe he should be doing his homework rather than smoking pot.
Comparing Schultz and Olbermann to right-wing extremists was a fucking lie straight out of the Fox playbook and a shitty sellout pandering placating move by Stewart.
Won't watch him again.
I do so because Stewart wasn't comparing the content of Fox and MSNBC commentators, but tone and audio volume. And as much as we'd like to think it's content that counts, when it comes to winning hearts and minds- and ratings- emotional appeals are very effective.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
I second that.
UN FING BELIEVABLE
like Bill Maher?
Hasa Diga Eebowai
...can get him fired and sadly he now periodically plays the "equal game". Olberman is public enemy number one, because he's highly intelligent, courageous, facts based, a great communicator with a unique witty style.
on medicine I don't really think he has any sort of monopoly on truth. To give the man credit though he doesn't seem to hold back much when it comes to his opinion. Remember how he lost his last gig?
Hasa Diga Eebowai
L&L writes that Olberman is "highly intelligent, courageous, facts based, a great communicator with a unique witty style."
I totally agree. He's quite high on my personal list of heroes. I found it very disturbing when he was suspended, though I agree he broke a contractual rule. But also, MSNBC's rule is wrong, IMO.
reasonable comment. It must be since I agree with it.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
That's certainly true of cable news. Which is why you shouldn't watch it. I thought that was the point.
The rally was about saying that cable news sucks. It wasn't about comparing and contrasting different cable news people to argue about who the exceptions were, or who sucks less.
Even though we are all painfully aware of the ongoing and current lies, obstruction and general destruction brought about by virtually ALL republicans, it would be refreshing and productive for Obama and other elected dems to publicly and very loudly scream it from the mountain tops......... And do it every single time they cut loose with their ridiculousness. Like they do.....with their outrageous lies and fairy tales. Let Americans know they at least recognize the bullshit that dribbles from their mouths non-stop. I just wanna hear them say they know what the republicans are doing. Getting them to grow a pair and stopping the GOP "crusades" are another matter all together.
...but if that's what you thought the message of the rally was then YOU, like Maher and many others just DIDN'T GET IT...perhaps the wingnuts should have been wondering about THAT rather than whether OBAMA gets it! Try to think past the word equivalency (which seemed to be the word of the week)...I heard J&S suggesting more that it was about being more civil and focusing on INFORMATION rather than the crazies and the self-serving RANTS (yes, I mean you Big Eddie)...Often Bill Maher can be brilliant...other times he is arrogant and self promoting...despite the satire and irony on TDS and Colbert I see neither of these men as mean spirited...much as I view our president AND admire him for same...so how about considering ANOTHER MESSAGE???
And you call out Schultz, knowing that the play field isn't close to being level.
TOTAL BULLSHIT.
Some of the nuance seems to have escaped people. Like that young man who snatched the Koran away from the nutbar so it couldn't be burned. Anybody remember what Stuart had to say about that particular act? In any jurisdiction I know that young fellow was technically guilty of both assault and theft Now why did he receive that award?
Hasa Diga Eebowai
The general message of Stewart's rally was commendable, and I don't think you will find many at C&L who think we should embrace a fear-based, unquestionably insane national discourse. The issue that many at C&L are objecting to, however, is Stewart's use of a silly and misleading caricature of the "extreme left" and the implication that both sides are, for the most part, equally at fault.
It's like in high school when a handful of kids repeatedly speaks while the teacher is speaking and incessantly disrupts the class. An equitable solution would be to call out the troublemakers and punish them. A Stewartesque solution would be to complain about the entire class's disregard for the rules.
In such a scenario, it's not very surprising that the well-behaved students would feel a bit disgruntled. "Wait, why am I getting yelled at? I was just minding my business."
Obviously this is not a perfect analogy, but it's at least in the ballpark. Generally well-behaved liberals/progressives are peeved that one of their icons would stab them in the back by suggesting that, for example, Keith Olbermann is a liberal version of Glenn Beck. Olbermann clearly is not, you know he's not, I know he's not, and there's no doubt that Stewart and Colbert know that he's not, but in the name of "objectivity," they chose to pretend like Olbermann is a raving loon.
I don't see anything commendable in wrongfully dragging a certain group of individuals' (and their followers') names through the mud in order to establish one's own "objective" bona fides.
[Google search Medea Benjamin's article, "Dear Jon, Sane People Protest Crazy Wars," if you would like to read more on Stewart's conscious and very intentional effort to draw a parallel between left- and right-wing "extremists"]
you recognize that the left has extremists. They do and some hold some pretty bizarre opinions. Including Bill Maher. This rally was not an exercise in accounting to determine if one side or another had more crazies. That was not the point.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
he's a libertarian
me-oww!
But his views on health care reform and climate change and what should be done about them would surely get him kicked out of that club.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
The PTA has extremists. The Local 527 Bowling League has extremists. "Extremists" are practically an inherent part of any organization with more than one member. Stewart didn't go off course by recognizing the mere existence of extremists within the left-wing, but in 1) pointing his finger at individuals and organizations that are not extreme, and 2) "balancing" practically every mention of right-wing extremists with a mention of Stalinists, or Marxists, or any other left-wing boogieman.
As I said at C&L right after I returned from the rally, I agree with the general message of the rally. What I do not agree with, however, is Stewart's insistence upon equating, for example, outspoken anti-war protesters with Tea Party birthers who bring guns to rallies and carry signs of nose-boned African tribesmen.
It was a rare treat I could not deny myself. I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree. I do not think it is possible to make a mathematical one to one correspondence with the various examples that Stewart used nor do I think that was his intention.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
Look, let's say I hold a rally against junk food. And I say "Snickers bars and deep fried twinkies are bad for you." And then some snickers fans say, "Hey, that's a false equivalency! Snickers bars are much healthier than deep fried twinkies!"
The snickers people are right that snickers bars are much healthier than deep fried twinkies. But they're missing the point. I'm not trying to compare the relative merits of different junk foods. I'm saying you should eat some whole grains, fruits and vegetables.
Another thing! An impartial observer would be inclined to wonder, "What's the problem? Didn't the republicans beat the Democrats to death, mercilessly, with a 'minority?' Why can't the Democrats do exactly the same thing to them, now that they are the minority? Or are those kinds of rules and actions only for the evil republicans?"
the bad guys err, the good guys errr, republicans when the media carrys your water. More often than not, when the republicans accuse the democrats of something, it's something the republicans are doing but they transfer blame away from themselves and the media doesn't factcheck it and counter but report it anyway.
This one was about how "we the people" are generally not insane, even when we disagree with each other, and we should keep that in mind when our media and politicians suggest otherwise. It wasn't about the politicians, and what they should do.
It doesn't matter if you're a Republican or Democrat. If you have a perspective you think you are right and the other side is wrong. And quite frankly, it's an immature human perspective. Whether you call it, the cosmic condition, left and right, yin and yang, the universe has always sought to balance itself. If you can't see this, then you are either incapable of such thought, or willfully ignoring the truth. People that see this can see how Obama and the Democrats failed to live up to many promises they made. People who cannot see this, will seek to blame the Republicans or some other entity for this.
Not everyone fits into a neat box of hating the other side or thinking everything they do is wrong. I think Stewart and Colbert we speaking to those people. Division, no matter how it's packaged is the same mantra that countless wars and atrocities have been committed under. If Democrats could see past their own fear to see that Republicans, like them, are just scared children, they would be able to recognize the thread that ties us all together. They would realize that terms like Democrat and Republicans are just labels we give to make ourselves feel more secure. That's gives us an identity that masks our true nature to the rest of the world. What lasting good can come of that? It only serves to prolong the pendulum swing that nature has set in motion to create order.
Vomitious bullshit stolen from redstate.
...but you're starting to do it now. "Vomitous bullshit"? You're talking to people here who largely share your political beliefs, but you're on attack mode.
BTW, I'm running to the store, so take your time and flame me craftily. ;)
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Being African American and constantly reading this argument(complete lie) I find unbelievable. Also, Stewart knows that the playing field isn't equal(Conservatives control the media, airwaves), so his comments come crumbling down on that fact alone.
and love the term "Vomitious bullshit" to describe RedState 'musings.'
me-oww!
by either Stewart or Colbert. I'll say it again, it was about how those beliefs are argued and expressed.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
We do not have the luxury to eat our own and even remotely suggest that we operate on a level playing field with Conservatives.
a complete pain in the ass of myself I appreciate that. It is mutual. I'm a crappy typist and I don't waste time arguing with idiots. The most worthwhile and enlightening exchanges are often made with the people I disagree with the most.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
I'll borrow from Dr. King here a little, when he talked about judging a man not by the color of his skin but the content of his character. Wise, measured words, right? Substitute 'color of his skin' with 'his tone of speech and vocal decibels', and that's what we're talking about.
I know you're an attorney, though I don't know if you argue cases in front of juries, but if you do, do you start shouting things like 'vomitous bullshit' when making your clients' cases? I mean, it's one thing when you and I get into a Bulls vs. Pistons or Packers vs. Bears thing, because we both know that the tone is just bluster, and we're going to support the laundry based on sentiment alone, so we can be as loud and foul as we want to be and it's all in good fun. But use the same tone while making a legal or political argument and the message gets lost in the dissonance. You're quite possibly perceived by someone listening- a juror or a voter- as being hostile to something that isn't just sentimental in their eyes, but sacred, wrong as that sacred object might be, even if it's something barely tangential to the case you're trying to make.
So this is where Stewart is right: There's so much dissonance that the message, the facts, true or false, get lost in the noise. 'Garblegarble' is exactly the same thing as 'Rubblerubble'.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
...different away from work. I just saw some Anderson Cooper 360 in Stewart's speech last Saturday. Of course Tuesday's great day for bad people didn't help.
...who comment on the intertubes, but it's the hyperbole from one side that the other uses to scare up their less-than-tube-savvy base. That base doesn't know if there's truth in your comments, and they don't care if you phrase it in a way that deeply offends their sensibilities in some other way.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
I'm not even sure what redstate is, but if they're saying this, then really where is the problem? Since when is a person who wants peace, not only amongst countries, but with his fellow man considered to be spewing "vomitous bullshit"?
Someone below quoted Dr. King to express a point, but maybe the bigger point is, if you can't see past a person's affiliation, religion, race, political views, sexual orientation or choices to see the human that exists before all of that, then there can never be peace.
My child sometimes gets angry or wants something that I know isn't good for her. Should I yell at her, or try to destroy her because she doesn't understand something that I do?
Politically, my family is 180 degrees opposite of me. They live in the south where racism is still prevalent and sometimes my father will engage in that same hateful speech. Should I be so small that I won't see the immature boy inside of him that speaks out of fear and a desire to be accepted?
Hate is not a tactic. Anger only provides a limited value and requires a lot of fuel to sustain. I would suggest there are better and more effective ways to accomplishing our goals.
Tone and volume causes the 'other side'- whoever the 'other side' is- to entrench more deeply.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
They're already entrenched.
They would just use tone and volume to justify remaining there.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
But remember the research that was written up recently about conservatives and fundamentalists -- that, when presented with facts to refute their beliefs, they retrench and believe even more intensely.
“Liberals believe that those who disagree with them are misguided;
conservatives believe that those who disagree with them are wrong.”
in Heather's post appearing directly above Susie's don't you think?
Hasa Diga Eebowai
That was my first thought too. Then I got to thinking it may be a good thing because many people seem to have forgotten that reasonable people can disagree and still be reasonable people. Hhmm...wasn't that the point of the Sanity Rally?
;o}
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples, promising liberty and justice for all
the point.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
Jon Stewart says that we get things done everyday, and aren't belligerent about it.
The So-Called Left is screaming FALSE EQUIVALENCE while the So-Called Right is screaming MARXIST.
The greater point, in all of that, is lost.
are not journalists. They simply wouldn't call San Rafael : San Raf-Ay-El .
I'm with Maher on this. While I love what Stewart & Colbert do, this BS about equivalency is 100% preposterous. I don't care if the "volume" or whatever they're comparing 'sound's similar. If you're saying the 'presentation' is the same, then you're really not watching either one.
Beck - is a coked up, throw a dart board & pick a religion, shock jock with a televised carnival show on Fox Fraudcasting. He's most famous for daring to expose the evil of taking your children to see "Happy Feet" and receiving an 'honorary doctorate' from the "University of I don't Remember". This is a moron that doesn't have the first clue about the real definitions or origins of Fascism, Nazism, Stalinism, Socialism, Communism, Maoism, etc. All he knows is that the lowest common denominator, follow-the-bouncing-ball, sing-a-long morons watch his show in 'awe'/amazement and believe because he has a chalkboard, that he 'must know what he's talking about', a 'well educated' teacher for con-servatives. What's really funny is the idiots I've talked to that idolize this magic bean scam artist, believe that he's somehow unlocked the 'DaVinci Code' for real and is exposing the New World Order, etc, etc, etc. In truth, I tell them, look at how much this psychopath makes off of you fawning over his BS, he's part of the top 1% that gets you to vote against your own best interests & subsidize his taxes/responsibility.
I've waited for years for a con-servative to actually prove that a 'tax cut creates a job' from point A to point B, looks like that will never happen. The Milton Friedman & Ayn Rand (Paul) BS that these idiots believe in like it was in the Bible is certifiable, all theory, no empirical data whatsoever that it has any basis in reality. Look at Iceland, they took this BS & what Reaganism/Thatcherism professed and put it on 'steroids' and the deregulation took a prosperous, geothermal rich & environmentally rich nation and bankrupted it like the 29 Crash/87 S&L Crash/99-07 Ponzi Scheme did to this country.
Look at what the con-servatives believe in....'Supply-side economics', 'De-regulation', 'Free Market' (no such thing - have to go back to when humans were still hunting & gathering - if you're being literal), 'Fair tax' (for top 1% anyway). All of those theories (and that is all they are) & ideological garbage when taken to their ends, equal only one thing, less government. They will inevitably end up producing what you have in Iceland today, Italy (circa late 1920s), Germany (1930s), Spain (1930s), Fascism. The concept of Giovanni Gentile & implemented by Benito Mussolini (not Mooselini - Palin, but not far off, Benito didn't have a helicopter/Cessna to bullseye Bears with). The definition from these originators of the concept = the MERGER of STATE & BUSINESS. Which is exactly what the right wingnut noise machine/con-servatives end game is and when their idiotic followers finally notice, they'll be Niemoller.
So when two guys over on 'secular central' (O'Reilly's 'brilliant' concoction) start saying that the 'far left' and the 'far right' are screwing up our country, perhaps they should step back, take MUCH longer look at what each is saying & qualify it against; Reality, Sanity, & Truth. Otherwise the next rally theme should be pretty easy, how the #### did we get President Palin & VP Romney?
We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children - Native American proverb
If being cold means there's no such thing as global warming, does being full mean there's no such thing as world hunger?
I've avoided these posts about the rally. I feel that Stewart and Colbert did a good job. They didn't want a contest between the two sides, they wanted to show there are plenty of sane people in America, and that while the two sides differ, there's no reason Americans can't sort out their differences with each other, civilly, peacefully and with co-operation and live harmoniously together in the same communities. What's wrong with that?
That's why it was the Rally to Restore Sanity.
far left loon >.<
That you and I completely agree on something. Nicely said.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
I've loved Bill Maher for his succinct way of spelling out the obvious, when the smoke and mirror routine of the Right Wing can distort something as simple as wanting to breathe clean air for example. But it is more crazy to call the Truth Movement a bunch of wild eyed loons, when it is made up of professionals like this one for example, hundreds, and it must be that Bill Maher just hasn't looked at the hard evidence. This guy below is just one of many. The fact that networks are owned by defense industry folks, becomes more obvious, as attempts to take down the ever expanding (international now) TM. Of course, they know he's a golden goose, and want to make use of his brilliance.
Scott C. Grainger, BS CE, PE – Licensed Professional Civil Engineer and/or Fire Protection Engineer in the States of Arizona, California, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, New York, Utah, Virginia, Washington, and Wyoming. Owner of Grainger Consulting, Inc., a fire protection engineering firm (23 years). Former Chairman, Arizona State Fire Code Committee. Former President of the Arizona Chapter of the Society of Fire Protection Engineers. Current Member of the Forensic Sciences Committee and the Fire Standards Committee of ASTM International (formerly American Society for Testing and Materials ). Senior Member, National Academy of Forensic Engineers.
I still don't get it. So how does having a public conversation about the tone of the conversation get us anywhere near discussing the content of the the conversation? Especially when one side- the right- not only is responsible for most of the tone and controls the conversation anyway, with their majority of loons and insanity, as well as their hold on the MSM.
I hate having a vitriolic irrational left winger as an ally as much as the next "sane" progressive, but if I had to think of some immediate issue and purpose to wrap a left leaning rally behind, the vitriolic irrational left wingers don't rank as high as a lot of other things in the way of progressive priorities to sort.
Stewart's message may have not been so much about making false equivalencies, but by making his "fair and balanced" plea for sanity, he's making a call that extremism (or the negative tone or whatever you want to call it) on the left is as much a detriment to the national conversation as extremism on the right, and he is in effect making false equivalencies.
Does anybody defending the Rally as being about the tone really think the extremists on the left contribute anywhere close to equally to this detrimental tone? Real left/progressive leaders and commentators out there are being sane and are not being heard BECAUSE of the insanity on the right. The sane left/progressive message is not not being heard because of insanity from the left left, but precisely because of insanity on the right. In fact I would argue that any "insane people" on the left are actually more likely to be promoted by the right than the left.
What exactly is a bad conversational tone and how does it turn a left winger into a left winger with an insane and "unhelpful-to-the-discourse" tone? Who are these left wing loons that have so much power that they are actually an integral and seriously damaging part of the public discourse? Who are they John? How much power do they hold and how do they number, stacked up against the tsunami of insanity on the right?
And by the way, what is sane-polite-helpful-to-the-public-discourse-tone-speak for "I think you're an evil, hateful, lying, deceitful, immoral, unethical, racist, war mongering, greedy corporate pandering, power hungry, gay-hating, christian extremist war criminal. I have the facts to back up what I just called you and I think you should not only be stripped of your power over any aspects of society so that no body has to suffer because of you, but also that the basic tenants and concepts of human justice imply- as we currently apply them to common everyday criminals- that you be punished for any of your evil deeds"?
I hope his tone was civil.
He's making a call that the only effective way to get this message through to the people who need to hear it is to not get into which side is more at fault.
Nope.
First of all, you want to use the third person. Speaking directly to this person is probably not going to be helpful. It has the added benefit of helping everyone know exactly who you're talking about.
Now, the main message of this rally, that I took, was twofold. The first was that politicians and cable news are divisive, full of nonsense, and largely unhelpful. The second was that actual people who disagree with you are, for the most part, not insane. Now, whoever this war criminal is that you're talking about, let's assume that a sizeable minority of Americans actually supports this person, and a majority of Americans would not want to prosecute him or her as a war criminal. How would you go about convincing them?
But if we presume it was said by someone towards Bush (which seems to fit) it would have been said out of total frustration because nothing has been done to hold him accountable.
As for getting the american people to understand what crimes have been commited that's rather easily done. I'd suggest first off, making people you've subpoenaed show up to congress to testify. No more behind closed door, not under oath testimony (or lack thereof). If the rest of the world (use Spain as an example) has the documentation to accurately ascertain that at the very least, charges need to be filed, then the information is available to all.
Now you'll say, but the press won't report it. Well, they have reported it. That's why we know, and if the right wingers don't want to acknowledge the crimes, too bad for them. They'd have to sing a different tune after testimony was presented in open court.
Even republicans eventually came to the conclusion that Richard Nixon was indeed, a crook.
And back to the original quote. Who wouldn't be justified in their frustration letting out a rant about war criminals running free?
I attended the rally and loved every minute, but I've gotta say, if there was one fly in the ointment it was the montage of "extremists on both sides". I reject the false equivalency of comparing a Keith Olbermann or an Ed Shultz with Beck or Hannity. Both sides may have a point of view, but only one deliberately sets out to manipulate information in order to deceive the viewer. Bill Maher got it right. Still think Stewart and Colbert are national treasures though.
jealous much?
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
It makes sense if he's talking about Bush.
Wat? Maher is jealous of Bush?
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
to tell me who provided the quote at the bottom of his post. I thought you knew, I couldn't find it.
The Restore Sanity Rally: Dug the rally, Stewart's message was cool and spot on. He was talking about our interpersonal communications. You know, around the T-Giving table Uncle Asshat says something right wing, you engage in conversation not battle. Stewart was trying to show how da TV was making us hate our friends & neighbors over ideological differences. I did, however, not like the media false equivalencies during the video portion of his speech. Especially since Olberman's comments were one's he had later apologized for. Where is that balance to be found? hmmmm.
What was disturbing to me was Jon's subsequent interview with Chris Wallace. Jon couldn't have shined Wallace's pole fast enough but I guess Jon was demonstrating his point - badly.
As for Maher, he is dead right about the false equivalency crapola. Of course we have our own brand of stupid to draw from. We say we like it when the government functions properly, except when it does we hand over the House, the one actually legislating, to the repugs. Not the dead end Senate, but the most productive House in decades, the House which sets the agenda. Yay team! And why did we allow this? Well, I'm glad you asked. Cause dumb ol'Bama didn't do everything we wanted as fast as we wanted it. He didn't jail the war criminals, stop the wars, kill DADT, give us the public option, burn Wall Street to the ground, etc., etc., etc.
Ol'Bama didn't push the progressive agenda and reverse the conservative one good enough. So we rallied our forces, voted in more dems and helped him get the job done. Oh wait, no we didn't. No, we, in our righteous indignation, vowed to punish the hamstrung democrats and reward the republicans with more power. OOO! but we hated them Blue Dogs! Not enough to run better candidates against them. Not enough to know we need those seats at least for now. While the repugs will settle for the lowest form of life to hold a seat, we liberals can't take another round of Blue Dogs in our big tent even on a temporary basis. Principles people, principles! If we don't have those we have nothing. Well, you got nothing, congrats!
Disagree? That's ok, you have the right to be wrong. Sorry to be a dick but most of you don't know how politicians think. I don't know why, it simply seems that way. Maybe you aren't manipulators. The right wing are manipulators, magicians are manipulators, con men too. What the right wing has decided to manipulate is opinion. That's why the big push to convince people we are a center-right country and the Constitution is the new bible. They know elections matter to politicians, just not as much as polls. Support, even imaginary, is the life blood of a politician. It guides them in how they vote, campaign, raise money. Support is life. The right wing is moving the country right by degrees of support. The dems lost big time this election. They campaigned hard for support. The result was not a lost election but lost support. The support favors, or appears to favor, the repugs. What do you suppose the dems left in Congress will do? Move toward the support, move right. Why do the bloggers question this with surprise and regret? Its natural. The manipulators atop the right wing already know this as fact. They have been co-opting liberal ideas for decades now. "Leaner more efficient government" - Al Gore stated this as a progressive policy twenty years ago!!!!! Now its repug mantra. Mistrust of government used to be a liberal position until Reagan declared it.
We need to define ourselves as one group of united people. We need to stand with our reps warts and all. We need to run better people everywhere. We need to stop griping over the little sh*t like how we don't like everything out of Stewart's mouth or Maher's desire to have a humorous show prior to the serious message. We need to take over the Democratic party and stop fusing about some third party messiah.
The last thing I'ld like to say is that we must be our own media. The loudest voice ain't Fox, CNN, or MSNBC or any talk radio station. Its people talking in every day life. I have several radio stations in my area. None really political. The right wingers call in at the drop of a hat. Either defending or attacking a position. They are animals with meat when given the opportunity to spout off. At work, at home, strangers at the market they feel its their god given right to vomit dumb all over the place. Look at the ratings, most of America doesn't listen to or watch news opinion. Only the loud mouths seems to. We need to counter this with knowledge and dialog. Not in your face stuff. Be the voice of reason, be the deep well of knowledge people will respond to. Go out into your community and be the media. Go to other communities. Enlighten others. Make us a movement. Don't give a crap what the media says. You know its BS, now tell the world. And stick together!!!!! We have much to undo.
It was an act of cowardice on the part of Colbert and Stewart to throw in Ed Shultz for one ,as if he can be compared to the sewer rats at Fox or Limbaugh ! They blew it as far as I am concerned , ruined the rally and the message they were trying to convey . Maher is right on ... again .
Insanity , it is what it is , there is no understanding it .
Awww did Stewert and Colbert blasted your hero? "an act of cowardice", are you for real? Why don't you call them traitors or anti American?
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick. Bloody hell!
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
Too bad Maher, Moore, Olbermann, Maddow and so many of them came up with these relatively uneqivical testimonials in favor of Democrats too little and too late.
For the 20 months or so prior to the final two week scramble they had no problem telling their younger, Democratic viewers that "The Democrats are spinelss wimps", virtually insuring that most would and ought to conclude that it doesn't matter which party is in control.
Way to go, folks. Now, that's how you supress the Democratic vote and set the stage for the kind of damage done to this country last Tuesday.
Are you saying that the Truth suppresses the Vote?
Are you saying that Progressives can't hold two diametrically opposite ideas as Truth?
Are you saying that some Progressives are so stupid that they'd cut off their nose to spite their face???
If any of that is true... then the people who are suppressed by Truth should be very ashamed of themselves.
~albabe (The Writer/Artist Formally Known As Al Gordon)
http://www.comicon.com/gordon/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gordon
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