December 04, 2009 05:00 PM
Jon Stewart Slams the Swiss for Minaret Ban
Looks like our own Nicole isn't the only one slamming the Swiss for this. Jon Stewart takes a whack at them as well.
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Score one for John Oliver.
"Nice" anti-
Muslimminaret posters.[edit: hey, those Swiss posters look an awful lot like this one]
http://n2.cdn.spikedhumor.com/1/632000/152292...
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
Symbols have power. I favor the ban in much the same way some liberals favor a banning of confederate flags or nooses.
Since the origin of the minaret on a mosque was "borrowed" from Christian churches bell towers/steeples, they should ban those too. In fact ban all sacred architecture.
Minarets aren't a "symbol" of anything.
How would you feel about a ban on minarets in the USA?
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
You need to watch http://vodpod.com/watch/1428923-sweden-in-gri....
Of course minarets attract large birds.
Single Prayer Option!
We all live on a slippery slope of stupidity if we aren't clawing and climbing we slide down into a big pool of fear. Then stuff like this ban happens.
"I know that there are people who do not love their fellow
man, and I hate people like that! " ~ Tom Lehrer (1928 - )
..but I thought the whole idea was to stay out of other countries affairs. Not to slam them when they do something stupid.
Not that I'm saying it isn't. But if you're going to be doing this you have to be more consistent in your approach. Namely, save your ire for what's going on in this country, not in others where we have no business of being.
against two muslim countries concurrently, which have killed hundreds of thousands of innocent muslim civilians, displaced millions more, and has basically destroyed a big deal of their cultural and religious monuments and artifacts....
I assume that is what makes us qualified to berate the Swiss for their zoning laws, right?
Americans need to learn to STFU sometimes, seriously...
We've always been a "Do as I say not as I do" country.
For the most part I think our foreign policy SUX big time.
"I know that there are people who do not love their fellow
man, and I hate people like that! " ~ Tom Lehrer (1928 - )
I don't think those posters were about ZONING laws.
If it were about zoning, I'm sure they could find someplace in the country to allow them. That's what zoning is all about.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
We need to stop equating countries not doing what we like with it being any of our business.
I find it frankly orders of magnitude more troubling all the propositions we have pased over here banning gay marriages for example.
I have travelled a lot in Switzerland, and they are anal about their country to a fault. And frankly, I would go bananas too if some jackass wanted to put a minaret in the middle of the Alps.
Uganda "kill the gays" thing?
... I tend to consider human lives to be somehow a tad more important than building codes. But that is just me.
How do you feel about the whole killing a few hundred thousands of those minaret loving muslims?
against a religious group is okay as long as you don't kill them?
No one's saying invade switzerland, just calling them out on their crap.
When did I compare those issues...Oh I didn't.
The contexts of minorities in the US and recent immigrants in Europe are completely different, so it is dangerous to extrapolate in between them.
But their governments let them in and (I assume) gave them citizenship, or legal papers. Did they make a rule that they can't build places of worship fitting to their religion?
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
they simply have to comply with the zoning laws of the majority.
The whole attempt to turn this into something is becoming the more hilarious.
Why minarets? Why not steeples, and 200 foot cellular towers disguised as crosses? If you're going to ban religious architecture, at least ban them all equally. Minarets aren't even offensive looking - they're quite beautiful. What I find offensive are big-box retail outlets. Why not ban them?
The only reason the Swiss have passed this is because they either hate or fear Muslims. Either way, it proves their ignorance. Same as your homophobic statutes.
Signed, a Canadian.
The average Swiss person has probably traveled more and has been exposed to a larger degree of cultural education and diversity than many other nations, including Canada. A tiny nation with 4 official languages, which has managed to operate under a relatively advanced and stable social structure for a few centuries... it is many things, ignorant is not one of them.
The minarets makes sense because the muslim population is not native to the place. Meaning it is a recent migratory addition to the social make up. So guess what, the place already had a set of laws and expectation.
...then they didn't need this one, did they?
Yes, ignorance can live and prosper right smack dab in the middle of enlightenment. So can intolerance.
And before you spout off about just how advanced and stable these people are, why don't you watch the clip? The Daily Show quite adeptly took the Swiss to task for their indifference, no, criminal neglect, no aiding and abetting of the Nazis during WWII. If such an "advanced" society actually stood up to Hitler, maybe fewer Jews would have been murdered and fewer lives would have been lost fighting the Germans?
Actually, I tend to agree with him.
However, what you said about, "Yes, ignorance can live and prosper right smack dab in the middle of enlightenment. So can intolerance," there is the example of the Renaissance considered the flowering of European consciousness, but delayed by about 75 years and relocated from the South of France, where it was developed by, I think the Cathars, where they developed such a culture and were destroyed by the armies of the Vatican.
And during the Renaissance you had the whole Witch Scare business.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
So was proposition 8.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
Illegally funded from out of state.
... we allow minarets and vote on approving the discrimination of gays.
... they allow gay marriage and vote on banning minarets.
I dunno, me thinks the Swiss have a valid point to ask us politely to go pound sand.
In Canada we have gay marriage and minarets. No problems yet.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
that to me is a problem ;-)
The issue to me is not whether the Swiss ban has any merit or not, as much as it is the fact that Americans need to learn we can just have everything both f*cking ways.
We can't have the blood of countless innocent Muslim civilians in our hands, and at the same time try to pretend as if we have any sort of moral high ground to scoff at other countries... and berate them even for stuff which pales in comparison to our current sins.
That whole thing about yelling at the neighbor for the speck in his eye while completely ignoring the industrial-grade reinforced 50 ton steel beam firmly planted in ours.
Actually that's mote, mate.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
but thanks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnv7tXEBATc
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w2TzMR5XzM&fe...
Nah, too late for tea...
Fri, 12/04/2009 - 18:25 — Tyler Durden
but thanks.
__________________________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnv7tXEBATc
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
No one spoke up back when Goebbels said the Jews would not assimilate, and they found their own solution to the problem. I guess we should mind our own business where other countries are concerned. It's none of our business (and yes, I had to go there.)
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
... then according to Godwin, this discussion is over.
Who is Godwin? Seriously.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
A jackass that goes bananas obviously!
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
"Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies)[1][2] is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990 which has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."
Yeah. I guess it's time to forget about all that old stuff.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
for real?
So many red herrings in a row, I though Canadians were stricter with their fishing quotas.
I wonder, and worry, because my sister is a Muslim and often wears a head scarf. I worry for her safety sometimes watching what's going on in this world. You should read the comments at YouTube-- some very serious hating going down!!!
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
it is actually quite the tolerant society. I have a lot of colleagues over there, a lot of them from muslim countries...
They are however super anal when it comes to their urban settings. I have seen neighbours flipping their sh*t because a couple of branches of a random street tree were not properly trimmed.
The same people of Jörg Haider. Right?
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
Yes, I've met the Swiss and the Austrians.
I'd say tolerant in the abstract.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
equivalence between the nazis rise to power, and the Swiss zoning laws... then I must say you are trivializing history with such approach. Sorry.
My post means exactly what I said. Tolerant in the abstract. It's fine to speak of being tolerant, but actually living it is another matter.
One can philosphise about about how tolerance should be right, but, when push comes to shove, not in their "neighbourhood", in this case, not allowed in the entire country.
And please stop with the zoning BS. Zoning laws are to prevent industry from locating in residential areas (etc.). Strictly zoning concerns would mean they could find a zone somewhere in the country/city/region to allow unwanted architecture. That would be tolerance. I'm sure lots of necessary structures aren't idyllic Alpine cottages: malls, electric towers, factories, cell towers, waste disposal facilities, sewage treatment plants, etc.
This Zoning you keep mentioning has zoned minarets right out of the entire country. If they don't want Muslim citizens, don't grant citizenship. Their governement allowed them to live there. When they were granted citizenship, they were granted rights as well. Was there a proviso about their religion or places of worship-- not to be constructed? Did they say, you can live here as long as you don't build minarets?
Minarets could be banned from protected areas. UNESCO often designates protected areas, and that's OK. If there is natural or architectural symmetry which would otherwise be spoiled. So maybe they can't put minarets in a pristine locale, but not every square inch of Switzerland is pristine.
Zoning laws can also stipulate styles and scope of architectural projects so they blend in with their surroundings appropriately, without banning them completely.
As you know, I was just in Prague. They have managed to build brand-spanking new buildings right in the midst of the gorgeous old city, and they belnd right in very nicely. It just takes placing some modification requirements (not bans) on the designs.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
I say you're calling red herring and strawman to avoid the topic. Lot's of people do that, you're not alone.
You saw the posters. Do they look "fair and balanced" to you, or do Muslims look a bit frightening, like they're hiding something, have ulterior motives, like "they're coming to get you." They're different, It's called right-wing propaganda.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
I find it interesting to see how enraged people get over a zoning law in a country that probably has one of the truest forms of working democracy in the world. It is even more interesting how some people find it possible to draw parallels between the holocaust and the banning of minarets. Keep in mind that the four existing minarets already built in Switzerland did not get torn down, nor did any vote occur on the banning on mosques, which is the actual place of prayer, not the symbolic tower itself. Sharia mandates that the minaret be built taller than all it's surrounding structures. If the minaret is not a symbol, then I don't understand why they don't build them four feet tall. Frankly, I think things get blown slightly out of proportion. The swiss voted on an issue that concerns THEIR country. The muslims that live in Switzerland are not kept there against their will. (Which certainly seems to dash the whole 'nazi' approach.)Those that did not claim refugee status, and emigrated there and were given citizenship, obviously like the country for its 'good' things, like it's relative stability. I think that when you move to a new country, you should have to adhere to the new country's rules and standarts. And while no one is banning islam, muslims, mosques or the right to practice their religion in Switzerland, the swiss democratic vote showed that the general populace (against the offical wishes of the swiss government)believes the four minarets already in existence in their country are enough. I think that we would do well to stop critizising others before we clean up our own affairs. Tolerance is a wonderful thing, but it can be abused. And speaking of tolerance...how successful would the building of churches and ringing belltowers be in a muslim country?
One man sees a red herring, another man sees a danger signal from historical lesson.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
Fri, 12/04/2009 - 18:27 — Edwin
Who is Godwin? Seriously.
_____________________________________
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/godwin/
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Anyway, it'll let me sleep easier at night. No more worries about China and N. Korea's human rights, or sweatshop operators all over the planet.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
Like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9dcc7VSWGU
?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
We can't have the blood of countless innocent Muslim civilians in our hands, and at the same time try to pretend as if we have any sort of moral high ground to scoff at other countries...
This is true, and I can only think how much more there would be if we (mostly) on the left did not speak up to curtail some of it. There might be another war in Iran right now.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
It has yet to be weighed against the US Constitution. In a secular nation... it should not stand.
The US Constitution was cleverly designed to protect the minority angainst the majority... absent religious influence.
Would you claim Prop 8 was not influenced by religion?
-------------------------------------------------------------
See: Lemon v. Kurtzman / Agostini v. Felton / Lynch v. Donnelly
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Fri, 12/04/2009 - 18:03 — Tyler Durden
I would go bananas too if some jackass wanted to put a minaret in the middle of the Alps.
________________________________________________________________
How about?
http://larvalsubjects.files.wordpress.com/200...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
.
Best mocking I've seen. And in the face of the one being mocked, too!
John Oliver out did himself on that one. BRAVO!
Well played Comedy Central and John Stewart...
... Honest news reporting, IN YOUR FACE!
.
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Feed Americans.
Isn't the joie de vivre of the Swiss a European ethnic joke?
http://10000birds.com/wp-images/images/calvin...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts."
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
"Imagination is everything. It is the preview of life's coming attractions."
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Study the symptoms not the virus...
I think it is not fair to bash the Swiss over their horrible discrimination of Muslims.
After all, they are just as rotten to the Jews.
Women couldn't vote in Switzerland until 1971.
glamourdammerung
Touche. Love it.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
What, no more of this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiGgip6q0n4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6ktE4_nmew&fe...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Remind us "that other" UN "Ambassador"
Just Take a Look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyTmuCJ95Bk
Iquals?
Well, maybe they've just taken a lesson from history. Look at what happened after the Catholics built those monstrous cathedrals all over Europe. The Inquisition; Catholic orphanages, with their abuse of children; forced conversion of native people in conquered countries. It may not be such a bad idea.
my ancestor donating the land Vatican City is on to the papacy in 754. (And since ysb is a descendant of Henry II of England and therefore also a descendant of Pepin the Short, I'll let him add his mea culpas if chooses to).
What I won't apologize for are the stunning cathedrals dotting France and Italy.
I admire Islamic architecture for many of the same reasons I do the cathedrals.
I've never seen change without a fire
Well, we use the Islamic numbers now, instead of those stupid roman IIXXDDGGZZLLWQOLSJUDIHJS NUMBERS :p
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
Roman numbers seems like a pain in the ass. :D
It's why I sometimes struggle to keep Louis XIV and Louis XVI of France straight. :P
I've never seen change without a fire
They were gay?
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
keeping the details straight! ;)
I've never seen change without a fire
... or lack thereof.
I have that same problem with King Philip IV of France and Pope Clement V (and his predecessor Pope Bonifice).
It's so sweet that after they burned the Knights Templars alive to seize their wealth, they both died within a year.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
well. And it's freaky that the prediction of the knight that cursed them came true perfectly. :|
I've never seen change without a fire
That would be Jacques de Molay who was burned alive at Philip's order in 1314, who was the head of the order.
Scholars have said the Templars were the basis for the Arthurian Table Round knights, known for their purity and bravery.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Which is also why I prefer the Mabinogion.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
that makes little sense...
That's recent, and highly speculative.
The Mater de Bretagne was largely an archive to put old myths and practices from the ancient world: from Celtic Gods showing up again as Arthur's knights, to Roman Influences (especially when Arthur was described as Emyr/Emperor in the Mabinogion Dream of Rhonabwy), and castles (villa like), instead of hill-forts, influences of Mithraic legends, but also Rus and Alans in the Roman legions. His career seemed to parallel Maxentius who fought Constantine at Milvian's bridge, and became known as Maxen Wledig and his British army in The Mabinogion. Another possibility according to Geoffrey Ashe was a Northern Frank king Riothamus, who is thought to be historical.
The Saxons (his supposed enemies), made Arthur another Beowulf when Beowulf was largely another early clerical version of Thor fighting Jörmungandr at Ragnarok, and it was probably little coincidence that Arthur's legends reached their highest popularity in 12th century France, just as the Church was stamping out the last vestiges of the Albigensian Heresy (Gnostic), in the South of France.
In fact, the closest we come to a historic document on Arthur was the Easter Annals, and they put his Battle of Badon Hill (Mynydd Baddon/Battle of Mons Badonicus) at least 90 years after Rome left Britain.
For years scholars of the Roman bent would argue that Arthur was Roman simply by virtue of there being no th sound in Gaelic at the time. That was definitely refuted by the Welsh dd being pronounced in that manner, as in Ysbaddaden, Myrddin. Additionally, although it lacked the dd sound, there was some minor god who's name is only known, but no exploits, from the Tuatha de Danaan (Irish) named Artur. The Scots have long had a black rock they called Arddu, so for a long time Bibles translated into the language used Arddu for the devil, like later in Saxon times they would often colloquially used Robin for the same purpose (as in Robin Goodfellow). One curious Robin Hood legend called him Robin son of Art.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I should mention that in tales that came out after the Mabinogion they British often used the Roman story of Aeneas, Ascanius and Anchises surviving the siege of Troy, and transferred it to a King Bron (The Welsh God Bran), but then this Roman legend was always in competition with the myths of Romulus and Remus in Rome.
The tragic love affair between Dido and Aeneas seemed to be a basis for later myths, under the influence of the Church, for tragic romances like the Lily Maid of Astolat, and even some involving Gawain.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
.
the Islamic culture kept it alive while Europeans were believing that cats sucked the breath out of babies and what not.
I've never seen change without a fire
The roles have reversed quite in the opposite direction since then.
science-haters, so I guess both religions have their problems with anti-intellectuals...
I've never seen change without a fire
but if you are trying to pretend muslim societies are any where near as open, tolerant, and scientifically advanced as Western ones (with warts and all). That would be fairly disingenuous.
There were also plenty of scientist and thinkers in Europe during the dark ages. What I meant is that over a millenia ago the muslim empires were the "advanced" ones while Europe was a reactionary hellhole.
about this concept in Islam to be intellectually curious and find things out, but obviously there's some struggles between those who adhere to the concept and those who want to bury it...
I've never seen change without a fire
Do not screw with cats, bast is going to feck you up. :p
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
Actually Bast, and in some legends she slays the giant serpent Apep every night when Ra enters his gate of the Am Tuat in his Barque of a Million Years.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
no youtube link? I'm disappointed. :(
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
With Ancient Egypt this is the best you can do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL8ruJ0kEB4
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I thought you would post "the bangles -walk like an egyptian"
But your post was nice as well ;)
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
Walk Like an Egyptian, by The Bangles. Especially since it's Friday night.
"In theory theory and practice are alike. In practice they are very different."
The Bangles don't date so well as the music of the Go-Go's.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
This holds up better than anything the Go-Gos ever recorded.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Nile - Unas, Slayer of the Gods
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFDQo_-vSZM
I've never seen change without a fire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rsEvQSQ6U4&fe...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTagRztmVTk&fe...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bt5c0o1s38
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
*
I've never seen change without a fire
Sounds like a slogan for a beer commercial.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XwQkajsDi4
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Some historians think that Voivode Dracula's fortress in Poenari was done up in an Islamic style with low ceilings, wider columns and bright colors.
Actually you pass through Eastern Europe, but particularly Romania and Transylvania you see an interestng confluence of European, Roman and Islamic styles.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
pics of the architecture. :)
I've never seen change without a fire
It's all ruins after being struck with lightening. Although I've heard the Romanians did some reconstruction under Nicolae Ceausescu, who fancied himself another Dracula.
That's why Romanians thought it justice when he and his wife Elena were executed at Tisighora, Dracula's Transylvanian birthplace in 1431.
There are some living distant descendants of Dracula, his immediate line died about 100 years after he disappeared in battle, who want to regain the throne. One guy has to keep insisting he's not a Dracula, the Romanian-American Daryl Dragon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKw8j7GLSdw
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
That castle looked many things, Islamic style not at all (there were multiple islamic styles really)
The best place to see the confluence you are talking about is Central and Southern Spain. The mozarabe style was exactly what you describe.
Would we American allow the erections of any
http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/older_and_u...
?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
who would not like to see any erections in America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzkpPnPWRL4
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Didn't an American President warn us about "foreign entanglements"?
I wonder what America would be today if we had followed his advice.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
How about if the Swiss allow their Muslim communities surface to air missles?
They look like minarets.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
the Swiss have almost mandatory firearms possession for their citizen army.
And a great suicide rate IIRC.
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
There's no comparison between the Swiss ban on minarets and the kind of intolerance that goes on inside Muslim countries. Why should the latter get a free pass?
I see a glaring contradiction when self-identified liberals protect Islam, which is the very antithesis of everything they believe in. You want an example of intolerance? Look no further than the demolition of the Buddhas of Bamyan in 2001. You want to see someone take an extreme reaction against free speech? The infamous Danish cartoons controversy stands out. And need we even discuss such things as women's rights or LGBT issues? I don't think anyone could defend Islam's positions in either regard.
"In theory theory and practice are alike. In practice they are very different."
Certainly there are many more egregious examples of discrimination and prejudice in the world, but that doesn't absolve this.
Isn't the defense, "Yeah, well some crazy mullah's didn't like cartoons." actually a damning defense? I mean, to be mentioned in the same breath with such icons of intolerance can't be flattering.
which is very important, and usually disregarded only by those who find it uncooperative with their agenda.
Then every topic should come down to some scale of how reprehensible it is. Say from 1 to 100.
We could establish context in the grand scheme of all that is correct and righteous.
e.g.
1. Those black kids that beat up the white kid on the bus.
15. Banning Minarets
55. Rush Limbaugh/Glenn Beck Hate Speech
75. Matthew Shepherd
100. Hitler/Stalin
Now, can we argue more semantics about my proposed rating system? Maybe hate speech is more egregious than hate crime because it incites one?
The comments can then be a discussion about where the main topic falls in the spectrum, instead of the merits of the topic itself.
For example, the context of how hypocritical is for any major religion, which are for the most part responsible for discrimination at such level as to be fairly structural to them, to bitch and moan because they are being discriminated for not being able to openly flaunt their their temples to celebrate their own discrimination fests.
It is your contention that the Swiss people did this as a political act to protest the intolerance of Islam? That seems particularly hypocritical given their record on other intolerance.
I had no idea, I saw a video of Jon Stewart and John Oliver poking fun at 'tolerant' Switzerland.
As Goethe said, 'there is nothing worse than willful ignorance.' I'm not even making any point on the banning of minarets or Jon Stewart's response to it. All I'm saying is that to be consistent you really have to strip away the shield that religions claim to have surrounding their activities - often reprehensible - because they are sacred, holy, or demanded by God, Allah, The Great Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc. When an act is unjustifiable, it cannot by definition be justified by recourse to some invisible and improbable entity.
- Delos McKown
"In theory theory and practice are alike. In practice they are very different."
I thought the topic was a piece done by the Daily Show about the banning of the construction of Minarets in Switzerland.
I also had no idea that Minarets represented only the fundamental side of Islam. Silly me, I thought that there were billions of non-violent Muslims in the world, and that minarets are used called them ALL to prayer, not just the militant ones.
So, now I have been chastised into an understanding. This was indeed a political act of Switzerland showing that Minarets are a tool of militants and represent a cause that is intolerant and wholly outside main stream Islam. It is in know way xenophobic, I am APPALLED that Jon Stewart and John Oliver would DARE suggest that.
Your original post...
"There's no comparison between the Swiss ban on minarets and the kind of intolerance that goes on inside Muslim countries. Why should the latter get a free pass?"
I guess this is where I am confused. Where is Muslim country intolerance getting a free pass? I have heard about it almost every day for the last 8 or 9 years.
Did you mean in this piece? Because this piece wasn't targeting Muslim countries.
..that the billions of reasonable, non-violent and tolerant Muslims are incapable of grasping control of their religion from this supposedly tiny minority of fanatics? Maybe you could point out to me the groundswell of activity working towards that goal.
And for the record I give no special consideration to Christians, Hindus, Buddhists or any other group who attack others for not adhering to their irrational beliefs.
"In theory theory and practice are alike. In practice they are very different."
That's an interesting question.
I would say it's a power equation.
We may have control of religion's excesses right now in our country, but we have small groups of people directing our economy to their enrichment and our impoverishment; where in the last 8 years we've lost 200 year old Constitutional protections because of essentially the same group in halls of government.
Why can't we grasp control of our own country's destiny?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
please tone it down it with the red herrings and strawmen. If you can't or don't want to answer my posts directly, so be it. But do not twist my words and assume something other than what I wrote in order to fit your narrative. Thanks.
We're talking about what amounts to zoning laws. Swiss people decided they do not like minarets and what they represent. Democracy works like that some ways. No, they are not "oppresing" a minority, because they did not go out of their way to kidnap and slave a minority, treat them as 3rd class citizens, abuse them, and just assume that with a couple of decades of "feel good" symbolic crap everything is A-OK. The minorities in Europe, the muslim in this case, have a very very very very very different historical context and reality than the racial/cultural interactions in this country. The main difference in this case, it is that unlike this country which is made up mostly of immigrants (after all we basically wipped out the native population, how "considerate" of us eh? certainly we can go around talking about how to treat other cultures I guess right?). However, Switzerland and other parts of the world have a different make up: a local population which has not been wipped out by the new immigrants and which has lived there for eons. So they have a specific cultural baggage, and cultural expectations. They simply like their country to not have minarets. People who find minarets indispensable for their lives, they can chose to stay away from Switzerland. And Swiss people can chose to not have to cater to the cultural expectations of people who are immigrating to their country by choice.
What Americans are saying in this case, it is that hosts for example have to cater to the whims of their guests, or else. Well, it is a two way street... esp. since the Swiss are offering a stable and prosper society to live in, in exchange for certain rules and expectations. You do not like it, then work to convince the Swiss to change it... or stay at home, and wax poetic about all those minarets.
If Americans are going to be all holier than thou preaching "tolerance" they should at least bother to take 5 minutes to understand the society/culture/historical context of the place they are about to condemn for daring not abide to their BS standards.
The hyperbole from two threads on the subject have been astounding.
We, who frequent this site can agree to disagree, but the mobile purity test that goes on here on occasion makes the Repugs look like agents of tolerance.
Switzerland as a productive model....works! Not only do they preserve their past but they have built the largest and most technologically advanced machine in human history, the LHC at Cern, where they employ and accomodate engineers from around the world.
Switzerland is not a utopian society, it has it's warts, after all they are human as are the rest of us......with the exception of the lizard people at the RNC(snark), but I fail to see how banning minarets would deny someone, anyone, their right to practice their religion.
'Talk to the hand'
...make decisions on zoning in their own country.
Next thing you know they will want to ban minarets in Zermatt, or ban McDonalds in Grinderwald.
How Hitler like would they be to ban Scientology in Lauterbrunnen.
The Swiss have been working hard to maintain architectural control for a couple of centuries but how dare they decide what is least obtuse to architectural designs....the horror....the horror...SNARK!!!
'Talk to the hand'
Funny thing is here Mohammad's face is not veiled:
http://www.islam-watch.org/Assets/Muhammad-bl...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
and all this time I thought no one had a clue as to what Mohammad looked like.
'Talk to the hand'
But the complaint that the cartoon showing Mohammad's face was blasphemous was specious and spurious.
And having seen the cartoon, I can say it really just seems to represent a generic Islamic terrorist, no one in particular.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
that the overall point of the Theo van Gogh cartoons is that they did not represent Mahammad and therefore of no consequence.
I guess the point was lost to his murderer.
'Talk to the hand'
Theo van Gogh did not made any cartoons. Just saying! :s
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
Didn't he write articles?
But the point is the extremists don't recognize things we take for granted like freedom of/from religion, speech and press.
And in both the Afghanistan and Iraq we have to try to separate friendly mosques from unfriendly mosques, and how combatants will sequester themselves in mosques, and when we come in after them, they claim that we destroyed a mosque for no particular reason, whereas, I suppose, they had a particular reason to blow a golden dome off of another group's mosque.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
you are correctomundo!
'Talk to the hand'
And there are no crazy abortion-doctor killers anywhere??? Just sayin'.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
You're trying to set up a false-equivalency there.
Leave that to faux news.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
on Switzerland.
"We have a history of not participating in foreign conflicts."
No, you just have a history of making MONEY off of foreign conflicts.
Nazi gold, tin pot African dictators, mob bosses, etc etc..all with anonymous bank accounts in Switzerland.
Screw 'em.
http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandis...
Sign me up.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
In lieu of converting to Islam, they paid the jizya, or poll tax. This tax exempted them from military service and gave them special status under the Islamic system. Many non-Muslims actually welcomed Muslim rule, knowing that they had certain rights under the new system. In fact, some Muslim rulers actually discouraged conversion, because they preferred collecting the poll tax.
However, Muslim rulers usually insured that local populations could practice their own religions and have their own institutions, provided they accepted Muslim rule and paid their taxes. Muslims ruled places like the Indian subcontinent for centuries and did not forcibly convert the population. In fact, India remained majority Hindu under Muslim rule.
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Muslim presence in Audalusia helped keep Christian oppression of Jews down a bit, and the relations were quite good between the three religions in that region.
I've never seen change without a fire
Study the symptoms not the virus...
*
I've never seen change without a fire
Poll, jizya
Man could I make a dirty joke out of that one.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
... I've seen you do more with less! :)
Study the symptoms not the virus...
You get a ticket if your car has rust on it. If you want to become a Swiss Citizen you are required to learn German, do one year mandatory
military service, etc, etc. Low crime, clean, high educational standards . . that's the price one pays over there for quality. Few own homes there unless you are one of the rich.
"Few own homes there unless you are one of the rich."
Rly? so most are homeless there then? I guess that cardboard boxes are distributed by the government then?
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
Actually, that's quite normal in a lot of countries. North America is (probably) one of the exceptions in private home ownership. Those landed types don't like to give up their grasp. It's how aristocrats got their money-- renting.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
So? i rent.
I do not get your point that you have to be rich.
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
That's right. You rent your home but don't hold the deed. It's not yours to sell.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
lol, if i sell this shit place it would get me less then 50k. ( i must say i do not know shit about the house market ;) )
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
The Netherlands declared to be neutral, like they did in WWI. Completely disregarded by the fucking Nazis. Guess they did not have the banks and shit!
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
..that the Dutch didn't have as much as anything else. I always thought that Swiss neutrality was at least in part enabled by the fact that it is very difficult to invade through mountains.
"In theory theory and practice are alike. In practice they are very different."
no, the Netherlands was the route to England. it was that easy i guess. So screw neutrality and steamroll over it.
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
Nah, it's the banks. Money buys a lot of freedom.
Those banks were full of Nazi gold, and that of miscellaneous war profiteers, and assorted other *holinesses. Hands off.
I won't mention any names or religious denominations, but they're all covered.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
Switzerland and Sweden have armies with a fanatical tendency to defend their homeland to the bitter end. And with a history of defeating much larger invading armies. Same for Finland which was pseudo-neutral (aligned with Germany in certain issues though), and which massacred the waves of Russian armies which tried to invade during WWII.
Holland just did not have the same level of military deterrence.
Switzerland is a modern, secular society. I don't blame them for wanting to keep loony fundamentalism out of their society.
Look what's happening in Germany. There's a sizeable Islamic community there as well, and they're completely at odds with the prevailing (enlightened) position on religion. One group was threatening to murder anyone in the media who spoke disparagingly of Islam or Mohammad. That shit just does not fit.
It's not Islam that's the problem per se, it's fundamentalism.
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