February 05, 2011 08:35 PM
Fox News Idiocracy
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Rachel Maddow and The Nation's Chris Hayes discuss whether Fox's misinformation campaign and spreading of outlandish conspiracy theories, led by Glenn Beck, is damaging our discourse on American political and foreign policy.
Beck is so far off the rails this week I don't know how anyone who isn't mentally unstable could take anything he says seriously.
I can't stand watching him for more than a few minutes but our friends over at Media Matters have. Here's some of his latest fearmongering from this Friday.
Beck Hosts "Expert" Joel Rosenberg To Further His Apocalyptic Talk About A Caliphate
I don't know if it's "damaging our discourse on American political and foreign policy" - those with intelligence and critical thinking brains know he's a wacked out psycho - but for sure it's damaging what little is left of the the minds of his hapless viewers.
I agree that intelligent people know its crap but as Fiver points out below it still does an amazing amount of damage to our discourse because the people at CNN and most of the rest of the MSM pick up Fox talking points and treat them as legitimate. So we talk about death panels as if there was something to talk about and questions like should we actually have a public option are mostly off the table except in blogs like this one.
You're right but that's the problem. There are still a multitude of people who are without this reasoning capability and that's where the damage is.
Last time I checked your voting rights were not dependent on passing any kind of IQ test, or even showing yourself to be even marginally sane. So the damage is not just to the nation's discourse, but to democracy itself. You can be batshit crazy and still help Michelle Bachmann get a voice in Washington, D.C.
And yes, Mike D, CNN goes as far as they can to amplify FOX's message, using their standard 'false equivalency' tactic. Sure, if some people on the right say that the world is flat and the moon is made of green cheese, who is Wolf Blitzer to question it? CNN regularly extends the principle of free speech in that direction, to the point Sarah Palin would prefer - ratwangers not only have a right to say any lie that pops into their head, they also have a right not to be called on it.
OTOH, if a liberal comes on The Situation Room and says that water is wet, they treat it like an unconfirmed rumor.
"In theory theory and practice are alike. In practice they are very different."
Very true. This is actually why democracy creates its own problems, and tends to plant the seeds of its own destruction. I think John Adams observed that all democracies tend to commit suicide.
I'm not suggesting that stupid people should lose the vote by virtue of their stupidity. Far from it. But while a modicum of democracy is necessary for freedom and equality to flourish, democracy itself is not sufficient for either. Indeed, pure democracy can impede freedom and equality.
We need more than democracy. A lot more. Including, especially, an objective press that tells people the truth. FUX News is a threat to democracy, freedom, equality and rationality.
Actually, I think helping Michele Bachmann get a voice in DC requires being batshit crazy. ;)
Everyone is equally entitled to the pursuit of happiness. Wasn't that once self evident?
True. But don't forget that about half the eligible voters don't bother for a number of reasons. Because we are very much a class structured society we have always had a sizable proportion of people so intimidated by their class standing that they think it pointless to even use their brains, in other words the circumstances of life have taught them that it's better to be ignorant. After all when you have almost nothing a realistic assessment of one's situation would just lead to more anger, and that just leads to trouble. Many more people somewhat higher in the class structure have found life better if they simply don't think too deeply about things, having found that such behavior causes more pain than it's worth. And watching TV shows like American Idol assist in the quest to turn the brain off and keep it off.
In the past many of these people wanted nothing to do with politics, thinking it pointless to get involved in any way. Many T-partiers claim that they were apolitical before their epiphany. The brilliance (?) of Fox News is that they have found a way to cultivate and channel that latent anger, the root of which is an exploitative system, and direct it at the people who are trying to do some good, while effectively deflecting that anger away from the real problem of big business in control of government, and of course, the media.
But it can be argued that those people who watch and live Fox are already damaged and for the most part cannot be repaired. I'd be willing to bet that this country has the same ratio of idiots to those able to look past the sensationalism that we've always had. The difference of course is Fox News get's to say what they want, and they are growing.
That's possible, I suppose. It might not be true, though. There might be many minds just waiting for something to help orient them toward the world, and who can be shown that their current anchor is unreliable. And we don't know whether FUX News' mere persistence wins converts - people who would otherwise see past the sensationalism, but who acquiesce under the force of such relentless propaganda.
Yep. And that's a very big difference. FUX News' memes have a way of permeating the culture. Rational people are continually forced to treat its nonsense as attention-worthy just because it's so persistent. To plagiarize Tim Minchen, FUX and its viewers are like highly trained snipers using bollocks for ammunition.
Everyone is equally entitled to the pursuit of happiness. Wasn't that once self evident?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
it is funded by NewsCorp.
It doesn't matter how high or low its ratings are ...
CJR's Who Owns What:
Newscorp
... everytime someone goes to a Lakers game, buys a HarperCollins paperback, or watches American Idol they are giving their money to the backers of Glenn Beck.
Period.
I'm Boycotting NewsCorp! Heres what not to buy: http://www.cjr.org/resources/index.php?c=news...
I think the last book I bought was The Bat Strikes Again and Again:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://sk...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
... not this?
I'm Boycotting NewsCorp! Heres what not to buy: http://www.cjr.org/resources/index.php?c=news...
Heck, FOX News controls our discourse. What was our debate on health care reform? Death panels and government takeovers. That was it. And most all lefty blogs played right along taking on the "challenge" of whether or not Obamacare would kill grandma.
No discussion of insurance companies writing their own laws, no discussions of how it would affect premiums, no discussions of whether the plan was cost effective in comparison with other options . . . .
Just a discussion about whether or not grandma would be killed in a socialistofascist nightmare. In other words: no serious discussion whatsoever.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
They don't just damage the discourse, they prevent it from ever taking place.
"In theory theory and practice are alike. In practice they are very different."
1. FOX News puts forth their insane talking point: The right cheers, after all someone has to say what in their view "needs to be said." Wether what is being said is correct or even remotely close to reality is irrelevant.
2. MSNBC pundit d'jour acts all enraged about the idiocy from FOX, within the constraints of being polite and intelligent and not taking it too far lest lefties get really enraged (we would not really want that): The left cheers them on, after all it means that someone out there really really loves them. After half a century of being hunting down the left really needs any validation they can get, even if it came from one of the world's large military contractors or as it does now, one of the world's most reactionary telecom/media conglomerates.
3. The Daily Show gets to make fun of MSNBC for making fun of FOX: Centrists everywhere come in their pants at the realization that their lack of commitment to anything allows them a much easier and quick hike to the top of Mount Self Righteous. Because obviously making fun of someone for not being serious means that you are more serious than anyone, plus sophism is Greek for "being exceptionally right."
In the end, as you say... it seems FOX and their friends at the GOP are the ones controlling not only the discourse, but even where the debate gets to go.
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
That really sucked to hear those numbers.
Goodnight, Frau Blücher
You guys know nothing. Ok, I gotta go now..my 3 nurses are taking me back to my room now.....but like Glenn....I'll be back! Hey.......is that my happy juice you got there doc?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uvr3dmptvg
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Yep, that's how religions, conspiracies and Fox News retains control. 'No one else will tell you this, but we will.." Three guesses why Net Neutrality will be quashed.
BTW: I use the MSNBC website to watch Rachel etc - don't have cable. Last week or so, the video content on the site has NOT worked, either the video doesn't start at all, or stops and starts every few seconds. The ad server stuff is fine and all other video sources play fine too. This Rachel video played fine here. I'm on sbcgloba/att network - anyone else having this problem????
with the site too but if I fight long enough I get most of the content entered. Last week was bad.
The MSM's narrow range of permissable debate is more damaging than Fox's idiocy. Rachel ,if she wishes to do good, should find voices outside this range for her show.
I find that American debate is always Commercial or Capitalist centric. It is never allowed to be discussed that we should redesign the economic and social strata of the country. It' is never allowed to be discussed class warfare against the poor and middle class by the upper class.
Class itself is not even allowed to be discussed.
The debate in America, even with as many words as it has does not discuss any alternate forms of organization besides commercial.
They are at the forefront of banning piracy (or as I like to call it, the free movement and acquisition of culture.) which is equated to theft, but it's actually not. I mean, if I STOLE your car, and it was there in the morning, Did I steal it? Free movement of culture is a threat to outmoded industries, not artists.
They are at the forefront of banking hegemony. They are at the forefront of the attack on Net Neutrality, and they are at the forefront of Imperial Wars.
You should consider expanding the debate to catch up the the rest of us who see that unbridled capitalism is not in the planet's or humanities best interest.
Of course these are large swathing statements and obviously the 'They' is in reference to those who actually control such things, not the people ;P
'The devil crept into Heaven, God overslept on the 7th, the New World Order was born on Sept 11th.' - Immortal Technique
have been drawn in concrete for some time now. At one time it was common for some prominent preachers to attack the greed in our system (without specifically invoking the underlying issue of capitalism), but you hardly see that anymore. The Right's agenda is to continue limiting the issues of the debate, in essence giving them the liberty to frame the issues. At this point it's hard to discuss in the MSM why the growing gap of income inequality is bad (might be a socialist agenda), if health care is a basic right (same thing), if government should do anything more than field a military. When making their arguments the right-wing talkers simply ignore any issues that lie outside their imposed limits as it they don't exist, which is why it's impossible to argue with them, they won't step outside of their own box.
When Glen Beck states that the "uber left, Islamasists, and the global elite" are divvying up the world, the frame of the debate has made it easy for Beck to fabricate some made-up targets for his audience to direct their fears at, all they know is those labels don't apply to them. Thinking people may have figured out that the world has been divvied up by the transnational corporations, but that debate has been off the table for so long most people can't go there. In the vacuum of understanding the real problem it's pretty easy for Beck to pull some scapegoats out of his ass and present it like the truth.
And not just because it talks about the pernicious effects of Beckerhead's paranoia, but because it addresses as well (a) how difficult it is to counter that paranoia when FUX News viewers are encouraged to trust only FUX News when determining empirical truths about the world; and (b) that it becomes impossible to have a genuine conversation about what people in the Muslim world really do believe.
As for (b), there would seem to be (at least in my opinion and experience) a flip-side to the coin, as evidenced by scarce's earlier post. Whereas FUX News and folks like Beck and O'Reilly would like to associate anyone on the left with radical Muslims who want a New World Order under a caliphate, there is also a danger of those on the left reacting by associating anyone who expresses fears about the impact of the Muslim faith on world politics with the insanity that is FUX News, Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly.
As Chris Hayes says,
Indeed. And that means genuine, serious understanding. Not just of the parts we like, and not just of the parts we fear. An objective understanding of how the many and varied people in the Middle East think and behave, including all the respect for their human rights, and non-denial that they,as human beings, must share part of the ugly side of human nature.
Everyone is equally entitled to the pursuit of happiness. Wasn't that once self evident?
what you suggest would be called a dialogue, but that word seems not to exist anymore. And the point of a dialogue is not to see who wins but to talk with respect for the other. The rhetoric of Fox News tends to polarize people into good and evil camps so that it is impossible for anyone to acknowledge that the other may have anything valid to say.
Completely agreed. And then we buy into it by vilifying someone who says something that resembles what might be said on FUX News, unwilling to hear that person out for the association s/he triggers.
Everyone is equally entitled to the pursuit of happiness. Wasn't that once self evident?
I have family members who listen religiously to Fox. They think that if you disagree with anything they say, that automatically puts you into the demonized camp of the liberal elite, or progressives, or whatever is the evil "other" who have a unified set of beliefs at opposition to their set of righteous, good beliefs. Complexity is lost on these people, they want simple answers to issues they don't have a handle on. It's impossible to discuss specific issues when they get subsumed into a larger framework of good vs evil.
which, of course, is the rule where propaganda (public misinformation) or political philology is conserned...
wem
If I was a betting man, conservative America are creating a army of ignorance to do their harassing for you in the next election. This was done before many times throughout history. Net Neutrality will be gone and only the state will be able to speak.
After that you get that 1984 feeling... The Ignorant masses will cheer for their own enslavement.
'The devil crept into Heaven, God overslept on the 7th, the New World Order was born on Sept 11th.' - Immortal Technique
These sociopath opportunists on Fox will scream anything to get viewers and MAKE MONEY (and gain power for them and their Koch/Murdoch/Cheney/TeaGOP cronies). They just don't scream fire in a crowded movie theater, they lie and scream- monsters are behind you ready to eat you and your children! As to their viewers it is almost a LOST CAUSE- the Fox viewer is looking for twisted affirmation of their bigotry, ignorance and selfish nature. We just have to keep calling out their LIES, they will eventually self destruct, it is in their nature (they are scorpion in the Scorpion and the Frog; http://allaboutfrogs.org/stories/scorpion.html).
The other problem with the large number of people who have their worldview shaped by Fox is that they skew the results of polls. This affects how politicians act and adds credibility to false statements seen by the rest of the public.
If 60% of people polled believe the health care bill establishes “Death Panels”, maybe there is some truth to it.
Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot,
nothing is going to get better. It's not.
- Dr. Suess
http://goo.gl/7AUUh
Here's a link which also deals with Fox News' propaganda techniques and links them to some surprising historical figures.
The misinformation campaign that IS Fox News would be funny if it weren't so ... unfunny. America, pull your head out of your Fox.
...Cartoon Network for the mentally infirm.
His finger you will pull.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
nice reference to "children of men"...
wem
Danger! Danger! Danger! (Will Robinson)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYfM-frIWlQ&fe...
The EVIL Fox News is 100% right wing garbage. It is harmful Fascist Conservative propaganda.
As long as Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Beck, etc. etc. are allowed to promote their bigoted hate, fear, lies and violence, America is in grave danger.
When you want real news that is watered down to essentially nothing, turn to Faux and NewsCorp affiliates.
Faux News knows that homeopathic news is better for you, and can cure you of harmful desires for critical thinking skills and truthful knowledge.
Faux Homeopathic News
We dilute, you assimilate
'Talk to the hand'
Hee hee. I love that comparison!
FUX News is news completely diluted of all the molecules necessary to actually be news. But no worries, the watery substance given to you has memory of the news, and will resonate like the news, just without all those side effects like having to think about or question the state of the world. You'll be informed through this diluted substance because it has a resonant memory of the actual news, so it's okay. It works. Even healthier than an actual helping of genuine news.
Everyone is equally entitled to the pursuit of happiness. Wasn't that once self evident?
I thought that a fellow skeptic would enjoy that, Karen.
"Even healthier than an actual helping of genuine news".(aka, ignorance is bliss). :-)
'Talk to the hand'
?
For the believers?
Yeah, I would have to conclude that there is a Placebo effect based in faith for the true believers.
'Talk to the hand'
except that while they're diluting the truth, they're concentrating the stupid. Wait.. You're right. That just means they don't think stupid is harmful.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
The idea came to me yesterday as I was listening to the latest episode of "Skeptics Guide to the Universe".
'Talk to the hand'
Someone should restart the movement to get America on the metric system. Beck may soon run out of material. After all, who uses the metric system? Snooty European elitists, the scientists who lied about global warming, the Muslim world, well just about everybody but us. Another plot to destroy America.
Beck is simply ratshit, catshit, batshit, owlshit fucking unhinged. He needs an intervention in the worst way, either that or to be locked away in a straightjacket in a padded room.
Leave it to Fox to pour gas on the fire.
NOBODY 2012
Rachel Maddow is no different than her counterparts at Fox and deserves no credit as a spokes person for the left, she supports Mubarek's dictatorship and NEVER says a negative word re; Israel or it's horrendous actions against Palenistans. She even did a semi-recruitment commercial on her show, shooting tank shells and claiming how fun it was. Wake up people she is not what the left needs.
Mike Perkins MFSO-MN
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