Democracy Now: Somalia Piracy Began in Response to Illegal Fishing and Toxic Dumping by Western Ships off Somali Coast
By Heather Wednesday Apr 15, 2009 9:00am
You Tube
As Susie noted The Independent covered the toxic dumping and illegal fishing off the coast of Somalia and she asked which corporate media outlet would point out the big picture in this story. I'm still waiting for that to happen but as usual, Amy Goodman is doing the job the corporate media refuses to.
From Democracy Now:
President Obama vowed an international crackdown to halt piracy off the coast of Somalia Monday soon after the freeing of US cargo ship captain Richard Phillips, who had been held hostage by Somali pirates since last Wednesday. While the pirates story has dominated the corporate media, there has been little to no discussion of the root causes driving piracy. We speak with consultant and analyst Mohamed Abshir Waldo. In January, he wrote a paper titled “The Two Piracies in Somalia: Why the World Ignores the Other?”
Transcript below the fold.
AMY GOODMAN: A little more on the issue of toxic dumping, if you would, Mohamed Abshir Waldo. I don’t think people in the United States understand exactly what it is you’re referring to and how it affects people.
MOHAMED ABSHIR WALDO: Well, toxic dumping, industrial waste dumping, nuclear dumping, as you are probably aware and have heard and many people know, for quite some time, in the ’70s mainly, in the ’80s, in the ’90s, there was a lot of waste of all these kinds that companies wanted to get rid of, following very strict environmental rules in their countries. So where else to take but in countries in conflict or weak countries who could not prevent them or who could be bought? So these wastes have been carried to Somalia. It’s been in the papers. It has been reported by media organizations like Al Jazeera, I think, like CNN. Many had reported about the Mafia, Italian Mafia, who admitted it, dumping it in Somalia for quite some time, for quite a long time.
And as we speak now, I heard yesterday, in fact, another vessel was captured in the Gulf of Aden by community—this time not pirates, by the community, when the suspected it, and it was carrying two huge containers, which it dumped into the sea when they saw these people coming to them. They have been apprehended. The vessel had been apprehended. Fortunately, the containers did not sink into the sea, but they are being towed to the coast. And this community has invited the international community to come and investigate this matter. So far, we don’t have action. So this dumping, waste dumping, toxic dumping, nuclear waste dumping has been ongoing in Somalia since 1992.
AMY GOODMAN: When I read your article, Mohamed Abshir Waldo, it reminded me of a controversial memo that was leaked from the World Bank—this was when Lawrence Summers, now the chief economic adviser, was the chief economist at the World Bank—in which it said, “I think the economic logic behind dumping a load of toxic waste in the lowest-wage country is impeccable, and we should face up to that. I’ve always thought that under-populated countries in Africa are vastly under-polluted.” He said he was being sarcastic.
MOHAMED ABSHIR WALDO: Actually, the more formal official concerned with this UN habitat has also confirmed in various reports that this has been dumped in Somalia. The special representative of the Secretary-General, Ould-Abdullah, who is now working with the Somali authorities, has also, I think, made a statement to that effect. So it is very well known. It’s not something hidden. It’s not something we are making up. The world knows, but it doesn’t do anything about it.
AMY GOODMAN: Mohamed Abshir Waldo, thank you for joining us, a consultant in Kenya, speaking to us from Mombasa.
You can watch the rest of the segment at Democracy Now's site.
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Amy is great! Thanks for posting this Heather!
Now pirates are a political movement? This crap is a food for Rush Limbaugh conversations. This lunacy exactly what feeds right wingers.
Because the right wingnuts will be offended? Puh-leze.
but exactly what does anyone think the pirates are going to do with their captured bounty of foreign food stuffs intended for the poor, that was the cargo of that ship?
Were they going to hand it out to starving villagers like some band of sea faring Robin Hoods?
Please...let's stop the demagoguing all around...OK.
Yeah, the corporations are fishing illegally. The warlords are also raping the country. The pirates are mercenaries out for their own ends.
There are no heros in the greater mess here.
Somalia...like so many other places is a cesspool. Parties all around are taking advantage of that situation.
The only victims in this are poor Somalis...and NO ONE is talking about them.
from a somali:
But according to many Somalis, the disruption of Europe's darling of a trade route is just Karma biting a perpetrator in the butt. And if you don't believe in Karma, maybe you believe in recent history.
also, i repost:
The truth is, if you ask any Somali if they think getting rid of the pirates only means the continuous rape of our coast by unmonitored Western vessels, and the production of a new cancerous generation, we would all fly our pirate flags high.
maybe you can answer this definitely, i sure can't: what do the pirates do with the stuff they have stolen?
that humanitarian aid ships, convoys, etc. have come under attack from mercenaries for as long as aid has been flowing into places like Bangladesh, Darfur, Somalia, etc.
The mercs take the stuff and typically sell it or use it to barter...for things like sex with someone's teenage daughter.
...they actually steal anything, they hold crew and passengers (and ships) for ransom.
They might actually succeed in getting world attention focused on the western injustice perpetrated on them if the condition for release was an international investigation into the illegal dumping activities. As it is, they just look greedy.
They generally don't steal the cargos because they can't. Most freighters today are container ships and require serious heavy equipment to unload. They have no problem stealing all of the crews' personal effects, however.
They hold the ship for ransom--which they do not share with the people of their country.
They have not had a real govn't since the late '80's--We should never forget the Soldiers being drug down the street in Mogudishu or Blackhawk Down! Bclinton was too much of a wuss to do anything and that has been the case up till now!
There could very easily have been dumping but THE REAL CULPRIT IS THE LACK OF GOVNMENT and a rotten economy. The pirates are about the money---not about the dumping...Let us not make the Somalia people more of a victim than they already are...THERE ARE THE PEOPLE AND THEN THERE ARE THE PIRATES...Who are no RobinHOODS!
I just said why should we igore how the Somalis are being screwed over by others in the world, just because wingnuts will bitch and moan about that?
Are the pirates really a 'political movement' and making some kind of principled stand? Hardly. This is just being used as an excuse. But just because it's being used as an excuse, doesn't mean it isn't really happening and should just be ignored.
I didn't mean to imply that you were demogoguing.
I meant that both sides...on the POLITICAL left and right are demogoguing.
As usual...the weak are stuck in the middle and getting hammered on all ends.
That is far worse! This is lunacy! These thugs drive expensive cars and literally buy beautiful women with extorted cash! There is nothing "noble" in their acts!
The truth?
I have a close friend who has worked in Somalia for the UN (also worked in Rwanda after the massacre, Afghanistan, Pakistan after the big earthquake, etc, etc).
My friend thinks this story is absurd. Somalia is a chaotic hellhole. You can't blame piracy there on offshore fishing and dumping. That happens all around the coast of Africa, not to mention many other places in the world, where there is no piracy problem to speak of.
There is no government in Somalia, no civil authority, no economy to speak of. The country is an utter basket case inland as well as along the coast. The bandits are not filling some unmet need for trade and social order. The country is a killing field. Hostage-taking, corruption and sexual violence are the order of the day.
Blaming this situation on the big bad corporations doesn't cut it, just as they aren't to blame for the actions of the madman Mugabe in Zimbabwe.
When will Africans finally be asked by the West to fix their problems?
about CIA operations in Africa in the 70's? Why would the West ask the Africans to fix the mess the West created? Oh that's right! BLOWBACK!
So what. The right-wing becomes unhinged about anything that ins't tea-bagging the ghost of Reagan.
People have to understand these things don't happen for no reason. Piracy is, indeed, illegal, but the world's problems will never get solved looking only at the immediate problem. Cause and effect are interlaced.
Susie and Heather, great work.
In identifying the causes of the current chaos in Somalia and elsewhere, just how far do you want to go back? The colonial period? The partition of Africa in the 1870s? There is a long litany of grievance and injustice to draw on.
But- and this is a huge but - for the most part, the historical causes of the current economic and political chaos in Somalia and the other failed states of Africa can't be corrected.
The cause and effect argument doesn't lead to solutions to the problem of failed states.
Somalia is so lawless that much of the country is too dangerous for humanitarian workers from the UN, Unicef and the various NGOs.
You want to get into some Chomskian debate about the horrible effects of capitalism in the third world, fine. Much of the dumping is being done by the mafia, not corporations or governments. These crooks aren't "the West", they're bandits and rogues just like the pirates.
The real issue: how do you restore social order, the rule of law and a functioning economy in a failed bandit-state?
I see. So once a corporation/government gives its toxic waste to "the mafia", problem solved. I guess they think it magically disappears. If it's so easy, why didn't they dispose of it themselves, in the first place? Why are they giving it to "the mafia"?
Mafia: gangsters and corporate waste specialists since 1905??
I say we go back far enough to find out what's really been going on.
to get us sometime near when the CIA was playing their little Imperialistic games there. OH and gee LOOK who was running the CIA then! Our little friend to all the world George HW Bush himself.
The truth is, if you ask any Somali if they think getting rid of the pirates only means the continuous rape of our coast by unmonitored Western vessels, and the production of a new cancerous generation, we would all fly our pirate flags high.
http://www.alternet.org/story/136481/why_we_d...
He said he was being sarcastic.
It was a gaffe, that is when someone in power blurts out the truth.
I shudder to think what we, the rich countries, do to screw over the poor countries, in every way imaginable, time and time again!!!! If it's not toxic dumping, it's trade barriers, farm subsidies, supporting tyrant dictators, the list grows and grows...
It's hard for a country to "pull itself up by the bootstraps" when foreign powers meddle in their affairs, for their own gain.
Although when it comes to overfishing, most of the rich countries screwed themselves over long ago (and still do it!)...
you do not suggest this is a political movement to "liberate" oppressed Somalis?
Journalism in its purest (and sadly rare) form is about reporting various and contradictory elements to arrive at a more complete understanding of a given subject.
You will not get various or contradictory elements from the MSM, since they are in business only to sell you soap, or whatever. Neither will you get it from the government since they are a predator state controlled by private interests.
Whattabout selling us condoms?
not a rubber dinghy.
The article pretty much just simple states how desperate people commit desperate acts when they are shit upon. Not really news in itself but news in this situation. If you want to be a mushroom that's your business but do you need to suggest others should be mushrooms too?
She's the best.
Send Somalia
http://www.gizmodiva.com/entry_images/0109/01...
Or even some:
http://expatbrazil.files.wordpress.com/2008/0...
The pirates's claims of being a volunteer coast guard would be a whole lot more credible if they acted like one instead of like kidnap-for-ransom gangs. If they restricted their attacks to illegal dumpers and illegal fishing vessels, this would not be on the international radar.
The reasons that there's a piracy problem in the Gulf of Aden are more elemental. First, it's a major shipping choke point, and has been since August Caesar ran Rome (Rome and India did a booming trade for the first three or four centuries AD). That's because it's one of two easy routes into and out of the Indian Ocean.* Instructively, the other one, the Straits of Malacca, is *ALSO* a hotbed of piracy, although that's been tamped down somewhat in recent years by the Indonesian and Malaysian governments finally mustering the political will to do something about the problem.
Which brings us to the second reason, which is the lack of any effective government on land in Somalia. As we can see by analogy to the Straits of Malacca, suppression of piracy at shipping choke points requires concerted and sustained effort by some government. And that's completely missing in Somalia, so piracy flourishes.
* The other two routes, around the south of Africa and Australia, are notorious for heavy weather.
and criminals like these pirates-gangsters need to be handled by a police force.
Aren't the warloards of the country pushing this also? They seem to want a lot of money for their operations.
bringing in food is not helping their cause.
Agree
All of these problems -- the illegal dumping, the illegal fishing, and the piracy all stem from Somalia's lack of an effective government able to enforce the law and patrol its waters. In that sense, they're intimately connected. But to claim that the piracy is a result of the illegal dumping & fishing is utter nonsense.
define this victimization attempt but 'rocketgeek' nailed it...NONSENSE...The 'pirates' are NOT SHARING WITH THE PEOPLE OF SOMALIA---THEY HAVE COMPOUNDS AND GROUPS!!!
It is not the USA's job to fix Somalia---it is our job to protect our citizens...No matter what the age--if you are standing there with a loaded AK47 pointed at an AMERICAN--you are A CRIMINIAL!!!
Snore.
When one becomes so unhinged, it's hard to do aught else but walk away.
I think I need to bring out my "please stop agreeing with me" flag now... :/
Shorter version: there are pirates in Somalia because Somalia's a really fucking easy place to be a pirate.
Goodman clearly stated that's how this piracy problem began in Somalia. She never tried to justify what is occurring now.
And she's wrong. Her chronology is backwards.
the Hallamark of Bushism Doctrine?
It's a hallmark of bad reasoning or thin background research.
Yes, Mr. Know-it-all.
Dude, I've been following the unfolding saga of Somali piracy for fifteen years, and you just heard about it this week.
I think therefore I yam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8TRoMSG-5I
blame for all the worlds problems okay.
The Somalia people have had ample opportunity to take charge and demand their corrupt leadership engage in civilized work and besides we've dumped more of this sh*t right off our own coasts the past 20 or so years then probably over there. If it's an actual fact we have been and not just a ruse excuse for these Pirate Gangs to rake in the big dough-ransom money cause it's been so easy.
Illegal dumping and fishing are certainly valid grievances, but how does this excuse or justify piracy?
The media needs to be asking questions, but we also need to be thinking diplomacy, rather than ::: chewing ::: 'The Somalis need to knock this shit off ...' ::: chewing :::
ahh... don't take it too far. There's nothing wrong with looking at things we don't do right. It's not saying we're to blame for all the world's problems, just that we still have a long way to go to be perfect.
Do you think we're perfect? If not, then what's the problem with pointing it out?
Of course the pirates aren't angels... They're probably the group of people who are benefiting most from the toxic dumping and illegal fishing etc. The other somalis are starving and these guys are getting rich (and killed sometimes) But the point is they can recruit people who might have thought piracy was wrong with the line that they're protecting their own coast by doing it. Anything they can use they will - The killing of 5 pirates by French and American forces can be used as a recruiting and justification tool.
It doesn't really matter what is right, rather moreso what people believe is right... it seems that way anyway.
both occur doesn't mean they are tied together.
I'm not buying this as political cause.
How much of the ransom money collected has gone toward stopping the dumping?
That's how much. It's paid for gang leaders estates, hookers, and all the other usual stuff that goes with this mentality.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
The only 'post' here is when it hit the US MSM big-time. Piracy has been a growing problem along the Somali coast since the last government fell in 1991. They've just been getting richer, better armed, and bolder as they've been paid more and more ransom over the years.
The US only got involved after one of our ships was attacked. If the US wants to help the region, we could stop the piracy AND the illegal fishing/dumping at the same time.
That would help us, the world shipping trade, and the Somalis.
The pirates may have contrived claims justifying their cowardly attacks on un-armed vessels, but their actions and selfish use of ransom money negate any of these.
There are two wrongs taking place on the coast of Africa. One instigated by the local pirates, and the other by the opportunistic greed of fishing fleets and garbage haulers.
Stop them both.
Exactly.
But how are they to be stopped?
I mean, we can send ships to blast them out of the water, but that may only exacerbate the piracy issue...and how to stop the illegal dumping?
We don't really have jurisdiction in that part of the world to keep other nations from illegal dumping and fishing. Not that lack of jurisdiction has ever stopped our nation from being belligerent when it serves our interests.
Somalia needs an effective government -- then all of those issues go back into local hands. Somalia's lawlessness is the root cause of both sets of problems.
Somalia is a cesspool.
This is where international cooperation is needed. Unfortunately, our hands are not pristine in this matter, and everyone is simply doing what is in their self interest.
Look at the big picture. What resources does Somalia have in abundance to exploit. Not much.
So...countries use it as their personal toilet for dumping waste.
If those poor people were sitting on a patch of oil the size of Saudi Arabia, you betcha the world would be working to stabilize that country.
At one point our Navy had three carrier groups IN the Persian Gulf (which hardly has room for one). Stick a carrier on each side of Africa – open the frequencies for calls for help, and patrol the waters for the international crime that is toxic waste dumping. They’re relatively close by anyway, and it wouldn’t cost us much at all.
These acts (of protecting international and unprotected coastal waters) are not acts of war.
These acts would ingratiate the rest of world that sees the barbarity taking place so frequently on these coasts. I can hardly think of a better use of DOD funds than to escort ships carrying aid and supplies to those in need – and send a signal to those who would thwart international law.
The biggest problem I see with that is that the USN can't do anything more than catch & release with the assholes doing the illegal fishing and dumping, because US law pretty specifically doesn't cover other countries' territorial waters and EEZs. They'd have no law under which to seize their ships and prosecute them. Changing that situation would require an act of Congress, and probably a UN mandate to boot.
US law does, however, cover pirate attacks against US vessels and US persons anywhere in the world.
True, and there isn’t any point in turning them over to Somalia (there is no Somali Gov).
But why not just go there? We’re cruising around the sea nearby anyway. We could certainly stop the piracy (pirates have trouble pirating with a four-foot hole in their keel), and the illegal fishing/dumping would most likely be curtailed at the same time.
In the mean-time, aid gets through.
I see this as a better use of the Navy than continuing to threaten Iran.
and send a signal to those who would thwart international law.
Another laugh-riot. Can Americans actually ever see themselves???
America does what it damn well pleases, and we'd better act like we approve. End of story.
We don't really have jurisdiction in that part of the world....
That really is a laugh-riot. Like that's ever stopped the USA from doing ANYTHING. (We must bow down to our masters.) Got any others?
Double exxxactly.
We can't even stop illegal fishing in our waters, trying to stop it elsewhere is probably beyond futile...
that delivered the SEALS to the killing zone?
The wisest post yet ysb.
But how exactly would they go about that? Use the ransom money to bribe the Mafia into dumping somewheres else?
SERIOUSLY. THIS IS MY PROPOSAL. WHY DOES C&L not approach MSNBC, with a serious proposal for a partnership. I have proposed the same about media matters, or even democracy now. there is a serious gap in substance on the tube that needs to be filled by dedicated people who do the research....
It could seriously enhance the television viewing experience...
Who's with me?
is going to be excited about Crooks and Liars contributing to their platform.
CBC did a story about this roughly a week and half ago.
ever since they shed the yoke of monarchial tyranny.
this line: "there has been little to no discussion of the root causes driving piracy"
is so very true. and it is the same with terrorism.
it seems that a lot of people here would rather fight battles in perpetuity instead addressing fundamental problems.
This sh*t is now a major industry that being bombing and yapping probably the only thread holding our freaking economy together.
The fundamental problem is that Somalia lacks a government capable of suppressing organized criminal violence and protecting its waters.
But why does Somalia lack a government capable of suppressing organized criminal violence and protecting its waters? It has to be someones fault (not the Somalians). The Europeans? Maybe, but they are Europeans and by definition better than this. The Americans? Certainly not under Obama, but since Ameriica is the root of all of the worlds evils when Bush was in office, this must be a holdover from then. BLAME BUSH!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWHXxmUgMGw
here is some background info
from article: America’s support for a violent strongman during Somalia’s formative post-colonial years hindered the development of stable political institutions and severely complicated its capacity for effective self-rule and sustainable growth.
http://www.counterpunch.org/macaux04142009.html
CIA Director Bush circa 1977 might be a good place to start looking for some one to place blame on.
Hell, if we try hard enough, I'm sure we can blame both Bushes (and maybe Babs too.)
And the plot thickens...
What a total clusterfuck...
What can be done about this? I got nuthin.
Evet. it is possible. Newspapers are history. I get most of my news and analysis from reliable blogs, but my heart sinks when i surf the tube and see that, the primary tool for the masses, is a talking head buffet, that is extremely watery.
John Amato, arianna and co. should take this seriously and push it. it is the wave of the future. best to be ahead of the curve...
However, the most news stories are generated from newspapers.
The Seattle Post Intellengencer has stopped the printed page on March 17. They are online only now. They are the largest paper to shut down and go online in the country. Hearst did not want to buy the Seattle Timees.
There are only 40 persons working at the website compared to 200 when the paper was printed. They were in a JOA with the Times doing the actual printing and distrubution.
www.seattlepi.com
Nothing will happen until the masses are informed and slapped out of their apathy. We can huddle in little anonymous clubs like these all day and lament things. But. some way has to be found to force feed the masses with the truth...John Amato hear me. (crap, i hope i don't get blocked for this)
I don't buy it. I don't see how holding sailors hostage for months in exchange for $20 million calls attention to toxic dumping when there's no govt. in Somalia. I believe the report that this illegal dumping is happening. Why not lodge a protest with the UN?
As far as I'm concerned, the pirates are criminals just like the people doing the dumping.
The internet is cool set of tubes that help research everything - if you're willing to look.
Back in the mid 90's the Somalis coastal villages were begging their government to look at all the bizarre illnesses and deaths as well as the death of the entire seabed and fish species they required for survival.
The US and the Somali government have long held private oil and gas deals. So when the two were asked about the dumping - their answers were "no comment" and we see and know nothing.
http://euobserver.com/13/27244
http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/what-i...
Same secretive US and Co. plunderings, different place. So stop being so damn naive and stupid.
everything you read on the internet would pretty much define being naive and stupid. Call it research if it makes you fell better.
there's no need to be a prick in your response. if you're so high and mighty and care so much, go switch places with one of the hostages to support the Somali "cause". Go help the pirates raise money to rid their seas of pollution.
IS desperation. When you've experienced it THEN you can understand it. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm guessing most of these guys have no idea how to contact the UN much less lodge a complaint with them.
I'm a proud Massachusetts liberal, but there are some on the far left who are as loopy as those on the far right..
I am disgusted by people who try and be apologists for violent criminals- These pirates are violent thugs, and should be gunned down if their intent is to kidnap or kill mariners- I couldn't give a rat's ass how sad their childhoods may have been, or even if they were short changed in foreign policy dealings- There is ZERO excuse for their actions. People on the left who try and exuse the actions of these pirate thugs hurt the liberal cause..
And the evidence I have seen is that these pirates are modiavated by money-nothing else.
I'm shocked anyone in their right mind could be an apologist for kidnappers
is just an attempt to overshadow the praise of Obama for his decisive Commander in Chiefy ism.
Maybe President Obama should have hopped in a fighter jet, strutted out on an aircraft carrier in a flightsuit and a codpiece, waving a "Mission Accomplished" flag .... he might have gotten some respect then.
and rushbo is using that exact excuse.
I'll see if I can findy linky.
I am tired of the bleeding heart liberals defending these thugs. Somalia has problems, lots of problems but trying to equate what motivates these pirates with what is going on in Somali is ridiculous.
Have I heard about the pirates buying food and supplies, NO. Where is the humanitarianism on the part of the pirates. With over $80 million in ransom loot we should be hearing about how the pirates are trying to change and help their county INSTEAD we hear about their lavish lifestyles.
you whining right-wingers believed in "trickle down". ;-)
but there's a differnce between being an apologist and trying to get at the truth. Did you happen to call all the people questioning the Iraq WMD stories back 2002 Sadaam apologists? It wouldn't suprise me because that's what you're doing right here. And by the way judging from your words I'm not sure you understand what the word liberal even means.
I can hear the right wing response now: Blame America First!
If we'd be pissed if another country did to us, what we're doing (or have done) to them ... we shouldn't be doing it. Some call it being a responsible world citizen, others call it "Blame America First".
..this was more European garbage than American garbage but of course we're the evil ones so everyone blames us.
is this "everyone" you speak of?
is not being an apologist by presenting a story that discusses some of the root problems of the area.It's made clear that their are two groups,one acting out of greed,the other as a community reacting to toxic waste dumping.
The media is ignoring the latter.
What evidence do you have for the existence of the latter group? AFAICT, it's all the former making excuses for themselves, as violent thugs the world over are in the habit of doing.
To the right if you aren't waving a flag and chanting U!S!A! U!S!A! you're an apologist.
.
I the pirates cared about the "rape" of their waters and foreign intervention along their coastline why don't they attack the fishing boats. Sink a few and others will think twice.
My thoughts, more or less. If they limited themselves to seizing those vessels, within Somali's EEZ, the international community probably wouldn't be roused much if at all. Especially if they released the crews instead of taking hostages for ransom.
I can definitely agree with that.
..for the piracy. As its been said, its the anarchy on land that leads to the piracy at sea. When you throw the dumping of toxic waste into the mix and how the Pirates are taking revenge/retrobution for these transgressions, well, then you have the Pirates of the olden days goin' on here. Pirates were pretty much an unofficial arm of a government. Plunder someone's ship, receive bounty from that someone's enemy.
The illegal activities though are NO excuse! But it will continue as long as there isn't a strong government in place in Somalia (like we're likely to see that anytime soon) OR we decide to go War with the pirates. Not this half-assed-make-a-lot-of-people-rich-or-dead- kind-of-war with no real victory but WAR. Which would you prefer?
The pirates of the Spanish Main (which is where we tend to get our romantic notions about pirates) were typically English or French privateers. I.e. they had obtained letters of marque and reprisal from one of those two governments allowing them to prey on Spanish shipping in the Carribean. The Spanish colonial government was too schlerotic and risk-averse to route out the privateer bases at Port Royal or Tortuga, despite having more than enough military muscle on hand to burn them both. Most of them did not think of themselves as brigands, but instead thought of themselves as soldiers fighting for king and country.
?
What's Somalia you?
..you have a mustache, doesn't mean you can speak Italian.
Bippi da booppi?
Two wrongs do not make a right. Somalia has become the wild west. There is no government or authority. The country is completely lawless. The United Nations needs to start earning their keep, get off their asses and put together their forces and take control until responsible people can form a responsible government. Until then let our Navy or Navies from other countries do what it is that needs to be done, and put them down. If these guys start getting capped when they try to take ships, they will start thinking twice. The longer this is allowed to go on, the harder it will be to finally take care of it. It's ridiculous that it has gone as far as it has. Of course these days it shouldn't be surprising.
..back so many years ago, Captain Bligh tried to take over the island of Curacao. Every morning for a few weeks, he lobbed 20 shells, no more, into the main port of that island. There's still a church on Curacao with one of the shells still embedded in the wall.
Does anyone think this might stop the pirates OR make life for the Somalians any better? Yes, the UN should start earning their keep and maybe go after the pirates and the polluters. Maybe we, the US, should "encourage with verve" the UN to do that.
Wake Up!
We are again being manipulated and conditioned to accept of mass murder as a concocted necessity. The "rescue" had nothing to do with helping Americans in trouble.
The crushing of the Somali's (their government, economy, etc)for the past twnety years has been to provide the pretense for US invasion and permanent US bases in the strategic "horn" of Africa and the massing of forces in the region. The strategy of "tension" and destabilization is what the shadow government has been using across the globe since WWII.
The predator empire now has over 700 military bases in 140 countries. Even the most detached couch potato warrior should at long last have a light bulb going off in their head.
We need to stop this for our own freedom and way of life before it is too late. The dark force is growing and is already consuming us while we swallow every pretense as if in some video game.
Enough! Obama is betraying all of his promises and selling us out to his handlers. He has not and will not do the right thing and act in the best interests of the American people unless we pressure him to do so. Eternal vigilance, not hero worship, is the only way things will turn out well for us or anyone else except for those pulling our strings.
Peace,
JK
PS: Throughout history pirates have cropped up as a problem when totalitarian empires make it difficult for entire populations to survive.
Oh, please... After the battle of Mogadishu in 1993, American forces were pulled out of Somalia, and U.S. policy shifted to non-intervention in third world countries.
Which had some fairly nasty consequences a couple of years later in a little country called Rwanda...
Oh come on,
It is impossible to believe that anyone believes that the US has been non-interventionist at any time in its history. The time since WWII has been non-stop bloody intervention in hundreds of third world countries. Even the period between WWI and WWII, known as a non-interventionist period, involved armed looting of 3rd world countries.
The US (clandestinely) was up to its gills in what happened in Angola, and Rwanda, and in what is happening now in the Congo and the Sudan. Rocketgeek makes some reasonable comments, but this sub-thread is laughable.
Peace,
JK
Pirates crop up at times and places where piracy is easy and profitable. Somalia, right now, is one such place. Until recently, the Straits of Malacca was another such place.
And shooting hostage-takers is always acceptable.
Amy is really good at what she does.
ok...the west effed up in somalia
doesnt mean we should do nothing about the pirates
its time for the un to step in and finally do something real
but we have every right to protect our ships
ADVENTURE & ACTION for sailors, mercenaries, and retired special forces/seals! A militia of the ocean! I wish I were young again! letters of Marque and Reprisal and chasing the Jolly Roger! Imagine....private foraging for pirates in the ports and shores of Somalia! The ultimate reality game!
with a maritime flair!
These Somalis are kidnappers and extortionists who threatened murder. Even if every word about illegal dumping and poverty are true, that justifies nothing. These men are thugs, not Greenpeace.
this is obviously a touchy subject. somalia's previous titular president contracted with a swiss firm and an italian subcotractor to allow dumping off it's coast. a european green party documented this contract. non somali fishing fleets have fished hard in the somali coastal areas. the somali response was originally to combat this with an adhoc volunteer coast guard. the piracy is an evolution of this response. i don't believe the alabama maersk was fishing or carring toxic waste. the pirates are no more relevant than bikers. i'm sure they do provide some economic impact in their communities, but i would believe it's just as likely that anyone laying their hands on a sustantial amount of money would quit and flee the country
What a welcome relief.
A clip from Amy Goodman - someone with brains, heart and intellect.
A welcome departure from the usual fare of C&L's endless clips of the ranting of right-wing idiots.
I was listening to a couple of NGO directors who worked in Somalia about a month ago and they said that this ("we are pirates because the westerners have taken our fish") is a bunch of bull. They said that Somalis don't eat a lot of fish and fishermen are not really respected by Somali culture.
It just plays into Western self loathing about Africa and gives these criminals cover. I'm sorry Amy but not everything that happens in Africa is about the west. Sometimes its just about making a tonne of money by holding a couple of ships for ransom which is a heck of a lot more money than they could make fishing.
In answer to your question about MSM outlets reporting on pollution and overfishing off of the Somalian coast: amazingly, ABC News with Charles Gibson did a driveby on the subject in his monday night newscast. It was a bare mention, but amazing nonetheless. Credit where credit is due.
from this Google Trend graph
http://www.venganza.org/wp-content/uploads/20...
that pirates have been actively preventing global warming, and as the number of pirates diminishes, they are less able to influence climate change. But why would pirates be concerned about global warming? Think of every pirate story you’ve ever read, what do they all have in common? (Well, besides the eye-patches, and the parrots, and the Arrrrgghhs, etc.) Buried treasure. And where is the treasure always buried? On the shore of some uninhabited island. No doubt you can see where this is going - if the climate warms, the sea levels rise, and the pirates can no longer find their treasure which is now underwater. Even their treasure maps would no longer be useful. Does evolutionary theory or Intelligent Design explain this relationship? I think not.
So we have a possible, reasonable-sounding explanation for some part of the unconfirmed above data we’ve selectively included in this theory. All that is needed to elevate anything from a simple hypothetical musing to a legitimate theory which deserves to be taught in the classroom. Spread the gospel, and the fundamental scientific law of FSM to all thinking Americans.
May you be touched by His noodly appendage.
http://www.venganza.org/
The dumping is fact.. some might explain this with the pirates in various roles.. on Charlie Rose the other night, an analyst suggested that corporate interests would not be happy with government intervention into priacy since these interests have a detente with the pirates and pay a known bounty and have known costs and a stable situation.. I don't think it's hard to imagine the interests behind the dumping have a detente with the pirates as well..
The Somali people themselves suffer directly and the rest of us will also suffer from the ripples.. I am concerned that our government is not acknowledging the broader environment.. I have been a supporter of Obama but fear he has the same corporate masters as those before him..
It's so easy to villify and marginalize the pirates, especially when they kidnap relief cargo ships and when they operate as loosely organized gangs.
Too many people are unaware of the plight of the oceans manmade acidity and overfishing, particularly in waters where there is not a navy to protect the coast of the particular country from fish piracy and toxic waste dumping.
Now that the Alabama crew are home we have even less of a chance of hearing that side of the story since I am sure they will be on every network, 24/7 and at the White House and baseball games etc. I'm glad they are all safe and sound, but I believe they were never at risk. Either the ransom would have been paid or our military would do what it did.
Predictably, the cost of the military action is far more in dollars and lives than the ransom. I have heard initial estimates of $10 million to $40 million and that was as of last week....
It's so easy to villify and marginalize the pirates, especially when they kidnap relief cargo ships and when they operate as loosely organized gangs.
Too many people are unaware of the plight of the oceans manmade acidity and overfishing, particularly in waters where there is not a navy to protect the coast of the particular country from fish piracy and toxic waste dumping.
Now that the Alabama crew are home we have even less of a chance of hearing that side of the story since I am sure they will be on every network, 24/7 and at the White House and baseball games etc. I'm glad they are all safe and sound, but I believe they were never at risk. Either the ransom would have been paid or our military would do what it did.
Predictably, the cost of the military action is far more in dollars and lives than the ransom. I have heard initial estimates of $10 million to $40 million and that was as of last week....
the fact that that Somalia is one of the most screwed up, dirt poor countries around and the people are desparate.
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