Chris Hayes Attempts to Explain That the Constitution Does Not Only Apply to Citizens on Morning Joe
By Heather Thursday Feb 11, 2010 6:00am
Chris Hayes is asked to respond to this op-ed from The Wall Street Journal -- Cheney's Revenge The Obama Administration is vindicating Bush antiterror policy:
Dick Cheney is not the most popular of politicians, but when he offered a harsh assessment of the Obama Administration's approach to terrorism last May, his criticism stung—so much that the President gave a speech the same day that was widely seen as a direct response. Though neither man would admit it, eight months later political and security realities are forcing Mr. Obama's antiterror policies ever-closer to the former Vice President's. Read on...
Hayes notes that the Obama administration has followed what the Bush administration has done in regard to terrorism way more than anyone on the left would like and points out that even though there's been very little difference in the policies those on the right are not only trying to maintain the status quo, but move it even further to the right.
From Hayes' publication The Nation:
The hosts of Morning Joe turn to Chris Hayes to debate the merits of a Wall Street Journal editorial called "Cheney's Revenge," which suggests that the American people prefer the way Bush and Cheney dealt with terrorists by skipping over the Miranda rights that are normally afforded to criminals. Hayes and host Joe Scarborough disagree on whether most Americans want Miranda rights to be applied to foreign terrorist suspects.
Hayes argues that no matter what people want, due process of law is in the Constitution and applies to foreign criminals and illegal immigrants. "This is a really important point to hammer home," Hayes says. "The Constitution does not...simply apply to citizens. This is absolutely 1,000 percent settled law and the 14th amendment means that it [applies] to anyone who's picked up and arrested."
Chris Hayes could not have been arguing with a thicker skull than Scarborough who of course didn't want to let a few facts get in the way of his preconceived notions. Zuckerman isn't much better chiming in.
Scarborough: I think that when you Mirandize an enemy combatant that is trying to destroy, kill Americans and blow up American buildings and aren’t Americans citizens… ahh… no. I have no interest in applying Miranda rights to that person…
Zuckerman: The Supreme Court… the Supreme Court…
Hayes: Should Timothy McVeigh have been Mirandized?
Scarborough: Timothy McVeigh was an American citizen my man. Big difference. Let Mort in here.
Zuckerman: The Supreme Court does allow for a different set of rules to apply to war criminals. It is not the same as having those same rules applied to the American citizenry.
Scarborough: Let me let Chris have the last word.
[…]
Hayes: Look, Mort, the whole point is a war criminal is not determined prior to due process so you cannot just say prior to the actual Constitutional due process, dub someone a war criminal and then deny them the due process required by the Constitution.
Scarborough then claims that we still need to “muddle through this” and “figure out what the rules of the game are” as though there is actually any question. They then get poor Chris Hayes to hang around for another twenty minutes and don’t bring the topic up again. Sadly since the Obama administration has given the Bush administration a pass for their war crimes the Scarboroughs and Wall Street Journals of the world have cover as well for their B.S. We'll see if the Brits manage to do any better. I'm not holding my breath.
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behind his name of course he hates the Constitution and everything it says. Nice try by Hayes to explain the difference between suspect and convict to Zuckerman but you know as well as I do that people as low of IQ as Mort will never be able to understand the simple basic framework of law.
Zionism now and Zionism forever
Ain't that the truth. p.o.s.
when you need her? She would have ripped into Joe.
Same situation and the Bush administration did everything exactly the same way...except he Mirandized Reid after only 5 minutes versus an hour of interrogation. Oh, and don't forget the 300 Bush tried in federal courts.
Right. We need 'moral clarity.'
Bullshit.
That whole pitch line was to justify something the participants knew was illegal. To suggest that we need to 'figure out the rules' is the same approach - an erosion of common sense and law to promote an illegal agenda.
Torture is against the law. It's a war crime under international treaty. To pretend otherwise is dishonest and heaps disrespect upon the Constitution and the rule of law.
airwaves in the a.m. Get with the Morning Joe theme you moronic joker. You work in TV.
Update: Just to show I'm a sensitive kind of guy, I realize it is even earlier a.m. out in the land of I&R. Moronic Joker was merely alliterative and not a reflection of the high esteem with which my
keyboard and I hold you.
... any dead interns in my wake.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies ...
"I'm not. I'm not."
- The Joker (Heath Ledger), Batman: The Dark Knight
No we didn't mirandize Nazi war criminals because the Miranda was created until the late 1960's!
http://www.mirandawarning.org/historyofmirand...
... In 1968 the finalized text for the Miranda Warning was provided by California deputy attorney general Doris Maier and district attorney Harold Berliner.
. . . . and that was his ONLY point, and he almost fell out of his chair celebrating it even though it was silly. Any semi-competent law student could have torn him apart.
His gaffe has undoubtedly been brought to his attention, and he will no doubt avoid revisiting the specific argument (much less acknowledging his error) once he brings on his experts to discuss the matter.
The funny thing is that these guys talk and talk and refuse to think, just throwing out "facts" regardless of whether they are right or wrong. And they're on tv, pulling down outrageous salaries, as if they somehow have something meaningful to say.
Maddening.
The funny thing is that these guys talk and talk and refuse to think.
not worth watching anymore. the Republican is a policy retard.
"...That the Constitution Does Not Only Apply to Citizens on Morning Joe"
Good luck with that, pal. I have a feeling that mucking out the Augean stables in a single day without the rerouting the rivers Alpheus and Peneus would be easier to accomplish.
... had been tasked with the Herculean Labors, they'd have decided they didn't have the votes, and that no one actually wanted the stables cleaned.
I somehow sense that we'd still end up with the horseshit.
Well obviously the constitution only applies to those who are recognized by the GOP as American citizens. No coincidence that only includes rich white guys (or the ultra-wealthy from other countries or multinational corporations)
... you have 30 days to register.
Thank goodness we have a liberal/progressive M$M outlet like MSNBC. Doesn't Joe seem a better fit to be on Faux?
Mika's own father called him remarkably shallow and uninformed, as though that was a surprise to him. Joe would do much better on FAUX as I suspect many who would otherwise watch him refuse to tune into MSNBC and at FAUX, dissenting opinions are not tolerated, leaving a wide open path for Scarborough to spout just any winger bullshit he pleases.
Zbigniew Brzezinski calls Joe Scarborough's Mideast views "stunningly superficial"
knows all about thick skulls, especially on interns. Put that low-life fuck in jail with the rest of them
I think the gods of msnbc feel they have to have Joe and his ever so many right leaning guests on to balance out Ed, Keith and Rachel. Make us suffer in the morning before enjoying the evening.
He had a lady on this morning who was trying to tell him we have gotten shit for intelligence when torturing a person. She said the head of the FBI had told her this and Joe still basically called bullshit on her.
You are correct. Joe is the token right wing joker on MSNBC. Luckily for us on the Left Coast he is off the air at 6:00 AM so there is now way I could ever watch him when I am here. ;^)
In Joe's little world if they would have tortured the terrorist and the terrorist said that he was going to get a nuke and blow up Detroit (just to make them stop torturing him) then Joke Scarborough would have been saying that we stopped a nukular attack.
Scarborough and his ilk are very successful at the positions they have been paid to fill. I really don't know why progressive, intelligent people go onto the TeeVee to try and make sense of something when talking to the repukes who generally outnumber them on the discussion panels, and who are usually the "hosts" of such discussions.
Some repukes, both xtian and otherwise, may be intelligent, but for reasons unknown are completely controlled by their ideologies, and are compelled to follow the talking points they have been given by the likes of ailes, murdoch, moneyed interests, limbaugh, hannity, o'reilly, etc.
One may as well be arguing with a box of rocks, or a committed evangelical, when on one of these shows. No matter how correct the progressive may be, no matter how valid his argument, no matter whether the repuke really believes what he is saying, it it the job of the repuke to disagree vehemently, and to make the progressive seem like an enemy of the country, an atheist, an ideologue, a Nazi, a socialist, a communist, a Kenyan...... Unfortunately, with the average audience, the repukes always come out of such exchanges as the winners.
The US is currently in deep trouble, morally and intellectually. Although professing to be moral, the religious are often hypocrites in their actions, especially when it comes to following the teachings of their "Jesus". Our schools have been dumbed-down to a level that high-schools are graduating illiterates at a very high rate, and our colleges are simply too expensive for too many of our young people.
Obama gave us hope, until he was elected. Then he appeared to become bush III, albeit a more engaged and functional version - he escalated the wars, he appears to be beholdin' to Wall Street, and worst of all, he appears to have ignored those who put him into office, and why he was put into office. I haven't given up all hope, but I am very disappointed at this point in his presidency, and am considering supporting another candidate in 2012.
... doesn't pay the bills. Ratings and corporate graft do. So does pimping Jesus for political points (something Christ himself would abhor).
Funny, that.
Jesus was a longhaired radical socialist jew, after all. Most people quoting him ad nauseum would do better to actually strive to be more like him.
Free healthcare, public education, etc, etc.
The problem with all this is that the "middle of the road" Americans, the people who do not think much past something to eat, something to drink, time to sleep and I want my two week vacation to Disney World for the fourth time, these people think only that we got the bomber so why don't we put him in a hole where he will never see the light of day. They don't understand the whole picture and the Republicans play on this. Instead of trying to educate the "American People" the Republicans scare them. The American people should be very angry that they are being played and punked and used by the Republican hierarchy.
Does that mean when Cheney, Bush et al. SHOULD HAVE been arrested for their war crimes, they wouldn't have been mirandized? I know they say they're US citizens, but they never produced their birth certificates.
... and then use their own admissions to hang 'em.
Just to watch him apologize to the Cheney family... It may not have been in Reno, but he SHOT A GUY IN THE FACE.
Texas
Oh, I know it wasn't Reno, but any time I can use Johnny Cash lyrics, I will...
But it bears repeating. CHENEY SHOT A GUY IN THE FACE. AND THE GUY APOLOGIZED TO HIM!
is an unfailingly polite gentleman. Not smart enough to avoid canned hunts with a guy who had four deferments
to avoid government controlled firearms training, but polite.
probably just wanted the rush of shooting a person without the risk of being shot himself. In war they shoot back!
If Cheney can say that Obama is does not care about making this country safe than I can that you are 100% correct.
Maybe Harry was just scared. If a guy shot me in the face and nothing happened to him, I would be afraid as hell of the guy and if saying I'm sorry would protect me, I'd say it too.
Harry is unfailingly polite.
My god I thought we were long past the days of witch craft and boogie men. Why would not human rights extend to anyone that is in our country? Can these people be that stupid, that vile?
republicanism/conservatism is a mental illness!
They wave it around constantly when it suits their purposes (Free Market Baby!)... It's only when it doesn't fit what they want that they have issue with it.
Don't kid yourself. We can always stoop lower. ALWAYS.
The foaming-at-the-mouth hatred that surfaced at McCain/Palin
klan meetingsrallies was just a hint of how deep the paranoia and venom run.Do not give mental illness a bad name. Republicanism/conservatism is a social disease.
soil and everyone being processed in our legal system. That is why bush's stupid attempt to deny the prisoners at Gitmo their constitutional rights was slapped down by the Supreme Court. But bush ignored them because he was running a dictatorship at the time and he controlled the military.
argued by Joe the Idiot is exactly why I actually hate that show and NEVER WATCH IT. I could not stand to even watch this entire clip. UGG! This negative banter promoted for program and network ratings (not the good of America) is anti-American. It is propaganda. I feel like I am the only voice of reason out here who wants a civil discussion AND NOT someone scoring "points" for their side. I agree with Obama: We are all Americans. Who needs enemies when you have corporate news causing fights among Americans. Somehow this should be illegal! We have serious PROBLEMS we need SOLUTIONS.
A brisk walk for your health.
A word used to support any argument, right or wrong.
All laws shall favor the People over the State
There, I said it.
Our constitution isn't just a bunch of made-up rights. If that were so, the government could give and take them at will. It is a recognition of inherent and inalienable human rights. Any person, whether it be a combatant in the German Army or a terrorist has due process rights. One of them is to be informed of one's rights prior to interrogation, hearing or trial. One would expect a soldier to have been advised of his rights under the Geneva Conventions by his superiors.
Ssh! Don't tell anyone.
Captain Codpiece started taking away those rights, and we just stood by and let him. Barry isn't giving up the power very easily either.
I mean, wasn't it that small-mustached guy from the 40's who claimed that he wasn't a dictator, but had simply "simplified democracy"?
We're a fatheaded lot, us Americans. We believe we're right, everyone else is wrong, and we have some sort of manifest destiny to figuratively piss on anyone who doesn't agree with us. Some guys fly some planes into buildings after we shot up their leaders and countries for a few decades, and we lose our damn minds...
all I can see is Clutch Cargo. Well, that and because he's kind of ignorant on some stuff. But mostly the Clutch Cargo thing.
of Lori Klausutis.
That whole story stinks like two week old fish.
He got away with something, resigning from Congress to "spend more time with his family", and yeah, I know what he said about his son and I still think
That whole story stinks like two week old fish.
There are some mornings when you can flip from Joe to Fox and Friends and hear almost the identical conversation. That's just not right in so many ways.
Mika can speak breathlessly but the blond chick on Fox and Friends has her beat hands down.
I don't know how you can do this to yourself day in and day out. I would rather poke a needle in my eye.
a reminder from Lysander Spooner. The "Constitution" does not apply to anyone.
Chris Hayes is right and Mort Zuckerman is another moron. Mort said that the supreme court ruled that you can treat people in our justice system differently depending on whether or not they are American citizens. In fact the exact opposite is true. The supreme court recently declared that everyone in the American justice system has equal protection under the law as stated in the 14th amendment. The ruling had to do with bush denying the detainees at gitmo their constitutional rights. The supreme court told bush you can't deny them their rights and bush ignored the supreme court.
A former congressman unaware of basic constitutional provisions. Joe questioned underwear guy's rights because he wasn't a citizen and presumably because he has a different sounding name than "Joe". How low can we sink? What if the bomber's name was Bob Smith? Would he be all GWOT! Islamofascism! Hide! Run for your lives! My guess is that Joe would be fine with Bob's Miranda rights and civilian trial but then again, I'm a cynic.
... on the No-Fly List?
I would hope anyone with a name like Smith or Jones would be. ;) Aren't those the names all people hiding their true ID use?
having no clue what the constitutional duties of a VP are?
trying to figure out what the duties of a small city mayor were.
Fresh as a Summer's Eve..
Of course a former congressman would argue blatant falsehood on TV! This is Jesusland folks, he's gonna come clean up our shitpile for us when Isreal gets nuked!
Of course a former congressman would argue blatant falsehood on TV!
That would be a Congressman who resigned from office just months after spending a boatload of money to get reelected.
A Congressman who cheated on his wife.
A Congressman who had a very young, very healthy female
staffer found dead in his office one morning with a cracked skull.
The corporate media thinks or wishes that the American public is composed of brain dead morons who will swallow any kind of sh** sandwich that's served to them.
Which means Joe will look around for a John Yoo-type guest to give him some legal cover for his misguided views about the law.
German soldiers who were still alive after WWII were not considered criminals and were not prosecuted. Only members of the Nazi Party or members of the SS were blacklisted.
Furthermore, although many Germans were killed or tortured after being captured, they were generally given POW status, something which the right wing doesn't want to grant to any Islamic terrorist, even though we are supposedly "at war" with them.
Scarborough echoes the thought process of the right wing. Law doesn't matter to them if they truly believe they are right. Our judicial system is supposed to hand down judgement, not partisan hacks.
An underlying story here is that if we DID live in a country that had one set of laws for citizens and a different set of laws for everybody else, right-wingers like Scarborough would be totally okay with it.
5th Amendment to the US Constitution --
"No PERSON shall ... be compelled to in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty or property, without due process of law ..."
"Person" What is that? Is "person" broader than "citizen"?
. . . he's legitimized them. It's now perfectly acceptable to look for reasons to deny people basic human rights.
Meanwhile, as scary as Joe Scarborough might seem, as far as we know he's only covered up the death of one intern in his office, Obama continues to cover up the murder of over one hundred and the torture of thousands.
Should uncover this info, with troops in harms way?
In fact, one of the big reasons he should proceed as the law requires is because of troops "in harm's way." Maybe he's counting on the world not noticing his hypocrisy when he complains about treatment American prisoners receive, but the image of America as an unrepentant torturer is becoming too ingrained to be countered with mere rhetoric.
I see it as putting the cart before the horse, that's all.
That nice Mika, start right in with a Rupert rag... Dow Jones & Company (owned by News Corporation)
jose padilla.
Joe Scarborough: "Did we marandize Nazi prisoners of war"?
Miranda v. Arizona was in 1966. So I guess not.
I fell out of my chair laughing at your post.
You know, you have such a stunningly superficial knowledge of what went on that it's almost embarrassing to listen to you.
by Zbigniew Brezinski
I do like Chris Hayes & Katrina Van Den Heuvel at The Nation. I just feel that in the MSM's eyes Democrats are not good enough for them, or for their Republican friends as well.
What you got was a remarkable trio: an aging Jewish journalist-editor with millions of dollars in the bank; a WASP-ish ex-D.C. House insider who does for MSNBC what Alan Colmes did for Fox, and a bright progressive wonk from a website. I think Hayes is great, but I wish he would slow down his delivery at times; I can't keep up with him. I wish they'd leave Zuckerman to McLaughlin Report, and I don't know why anyone would hire that bore, Scarborough.
it's like Chris Hayes had to deal with dumb and dumber. I just loved the way these guys kept suggesting that terrorists shouldn't be allowed due process like it was always going to be obvious to distinguish criminals from terrorists at the get go. Maybe they think terrorists carry around a special Terrorist ID card for whenever they might get arrested.
The whole idea of a "war" against a tactic, a non-entity was terrible to begin with since it practically assures that our country will always be "at war". And presidential powers expand in wartime - almost limitlessly, if you ask Cheney - so I guess we'd better get used to that being the norm from now on, rather than the exception.
Once again, pseudo-patriots pissing away, rather than protecting, the laws, rights and separation of powers that made this country great. Pathetic.
...IMO
Scar is as stupid as ugly.
Asking if Nazi criminals were Mirandized is utterly stupid! The Miranda rights date from the early seventies!!! I'm no US citizen and even I know that!!! How the hell could the Miranda rights be applied to Nazis in the forties and fifties!!??
Dopehead!
were apprehended in an entirely different country and were actual 'Prisoners of War' in every legal sense of the word, Miranda V AZ (decision handed down 13 June, 1966) notwithstanding.
Also, police are not legally require to read the rights, but it IS in their best interests to do so, because then a suspect cannot claim s/he did not know Her/his rights.
Joe Scarbelli used to be a senator, and didn't know that if you break the law inside of the United States rather you are from here or not, if you are breaking the law, your Miranda rights are read to you, the miranda rights came after the crime that nazi commited and was not commited in the United States anyway, and if there were nazi caught in the United States commiting a crime they also would have had their Miranda rights read to them, but my question is since the the FBI read abdula his rights, the chickenshawks been screaming, now where in the hell were the chickenhawks when Richard Green and other terrorist were read their miranda rights, so what Joe and other chickenhawks are commiting is a double standard, its ok to read terrorist their rights under a neocon president Bush, but not ok under a Democrat president Obama, freaking hypocrits.
in December 2001, Richard Reid -- the "shoe bomber" -- was read or reminded of his Miranda rights four times in two days, beginning five minutes after being taken into custody.
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