Begala pwns Ari Fleischer over Bush lying about his torture regime
By CSPANJunkie Wednesday Apr 22, 2009 9:15am
April 21, 2009 CNN
Dave N: Paul Begala and Ari Fleischer debated the release of the Bush torture memos -- and President Obama's indication that prosecutions of the architects of the torture regime may yet face prosecution -- on Anderson Cooper's 360 yesterday.
The fireworks erupted when Fleischer decided that the best defense was to claim that waterboarding really isn't torture:
FLEISCHER: No, again, Anderson, your premise is that it is torture. And I think the only people who can determine that are people from the Department of Justice.
COOPER: But it's interesting, though...
FLEISCHER: If it is torture, if it is torture...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: ... when the Khmer Rouge did it, when the Khmer Rouge did it at Tuol Sleng prison, and you can go there, and you can see the instruments they used to water-board people, I mean, we labeled it as torture.
FLEISCHER: And, Anderson, that's why I said the only people who are in a position to make an authoritative judgment on it should be career, independent-minded people at the Department of Justice, without anybody at the White House interfering or anybody else interfering.
And then, if they decide it was, then they have got a very careful decision to make about how far and extensive do you prosecute people. Is it the people who did it? Is it the Democrats and Republicans on Capitol Hill who were briefed on it and didn't object to it? And who in the administration would you have to apply that standard to?
This is where this whole thing can go.
But, going back to the memo, and going back to bipartisanship, you know, it's not just the Bush people who said it was wrong to release that memo. Bill Clinton's head of the CIA said it was wrong to release those memos, because you're teaching al Qaeda operatives exactly what our techniques are.
And why do we want anybody in al Qaeda to know what the limits of our techniques are, Paul?
BEGALA: The techniques that -- the techniques that we no longer use, the techniques that were in "The New York Review of Books" and half of the newspapers and magazines in North America, Ari. I mean, it is...
FLEISCHER: Paul, it was your administration's head of the CIA who objected to the release of those memos.
BEGALA: It doesn't -- it doesn't make...
FLEISCHER: It's a Clinton official who said that.
BEGALA: It doesn't make him right. Torture is always wrong, Ari. We executed...
FLEISCHER: I agree with you that torture is always wrong.
BEGALA: Excuse me for talking while you're interrupting.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Let Paul finish.
BEGALA: We -- our country executed Japanese soldiers who water- boarded American POWs. We executed them for the same crime that we are now committing ourselves. How do you defend that?
The most awkward silence imaginable follows. Finally, Fleischer is able to eke out:
FLEISCHER: Well, again, Paul, I guess you already are the jury, the prosecutor, the judge, and a citizen all rolled into one. You have already pronounced judgment that it is a crime.
Actually, Fleischer could have countered Begala by pointing out that we didn't actually execute the Japanese soldiers convicted of the war crime of waterboarding American prisoners -- we just sentenced them to 15 years' hard labor.
But then, as the New York Times reports this morning, this White House's legal team didn't even bother to research the legal history of waterboarding before issuing their Excuse From Mom.
Waterboarding always was a crime -- until these characters came along. Maybe that's why Ari didn't really try to argue the point any further ...
Login or Register to post comments.
is as much fun as what might have been if somebody got Bush on video as a young boy blowing up frogs.
Somebody give Ari a bow tie and call the damn thing a rerun.
Did anyone in the judicial system determine if what Clinton got was a blowjob before we, the public, criticized and impreached him for it?
Was Ari named Press Secretary for life...got he sure sounds like it.
Is it just me...or does Fleischer look a bit worried about all this torture prosecution talk?
they all are getting a bit more concerned. Shit's catchin up.
I hope they all get arrested, publicly taken in handcuffs to court, tried, convicted, and punished.
it's about time to grab their ass. Gigs up. I knew Bush was lying as soon as his lips started moving. Now lets hope they pay for destroying our good name in the world.
they did destroy this nations good-ish name...I'm more concerned they pay for committing war crimes and treason.
Our good name will be restored not long after they're convicted.
probably wouldn't be included by the countries we interferred with in the interest of exploiting their resources, like most of S America and the middle east.
n/t
Like, I mean, pregnant with quintuplets pause, from Ari when Paul asked him point blank, "We executed Japanese soldiers for waterboarding...how do you defend that?"
Crickets...crickets...crickets.
These are the moments I really love to see.
Boy oh Boy... Ari kinda mentally spun out there for a minute didn't he? So we actually EXECUTED Japanese soldiers for water-boarding our soldiers.... this is a HEAVY statement that tripped up Ari... it is a critical piece of information that will go far in prosecuting those who backed this unAmerican act.
Yeah, but we didn't execute them.
and most of his toys. A precedent?
History supports McCain's stance on waterboarding
In a recent journal essay, Judge Evan Wallach, a member of the U.S. Court of International Trade and an adjunct professor in the law of war, writes that the testimony from American soldiers about this form of torture was gruesome and convincing. A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps.
was Ari filling his Pampers.
Another lying, criminal, un-American Conservative hypocrite truly deserving a 2 by 4 to his ugly face.
to hide in a Truck Stop when it was all over.
Haha.
Who what when please?
This is so wrong. Fleisher's arguing that it's wrong to say that waterboarding is a crime, as if we're wanting to try the concept of waterboarding. I thought that waterboarding had already been established as a crime and all we are wanting to do is determine if anyone in the previous administration broke the law by ordering it.
Using Fleisher's argument, we could not talk about trying an alleged murderer because we had already determined unfairly that murder was a crime. It makes no sense. Judges and juries do not decide what the laws are, just whether or not the accused is guilty of breaking them. At least as far as I understand the process.
Do you read what you write?
Fliesher's trying to pretend that waterboarding isn't a crime. It is not only a crime under our laws, it is internationally defined as a crime. If it's done during war, it's a WAR CRIME. One for which we prosecuted several Japanese. You apparently know no history, nor are you willing to learn.
What SmokinJay is saying is that what Fliesher is trying to do is equivalent to a guy on trial for murder trying to cast doubt on murder being a crime, there is no doubt. What are you, thick?
I misread that it was Fliesher's statement. If you have been here before, you would know that I'm highly respected here and I resent your comment.
we like you...but let's not get crazy. ;o)
she did say it was thick and long too.
to be thin and short?
...think Ari was just doing what a typical cockhead conservative does when they are losing the argument:
get snarky and attack the messenger. He was just acting like the asshole that he is.
The legal discussion here is interesting, too, (thank you for that, all of you), but I am adding the extra point of Ari just trying to throw sand in Begala's face.
Speaking of which:
"Excuse me for talking while you're interrupting"
LOLzx10! Classic. Anyone going up against a filibustering, lying dick like Ari needs to keep that one locked and loaded.
NYT (via MSNBC): Gruesome origins of 'torture' tactics overlooked
Who could have known these were the techniques used by the Communist Chinese to wring false confessions from American prisoners of war during the Korean War?
Who could have known they produced false confessions?
Who could have known there are better LEGAL interrogation techniques?
Gosh .. golly .. who could have known?
yep, lame, tired, used, over the hill. No one with a brain tries it, only the antiquated neoNAZIcons. If I never hear anyone use that phrase again............ It is the MO of the BUSHCRIMEFAMILY.
" BEGALA: We -- our country executed Japanese soldiers who water- boarded American POWs. We executed them for the same crime that we are now committing ourselves. How do you defend that?
The most awkward silence imaginable follows.
I believe that was the precise moment when Ari messed his Fruit of the Looms.
I woulda thunk Frederick's.
I'm pretty sure it was Ari.
;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TcC_ni0ojo
It was Pampers, not Fruit of the Looms.
Depends
are just brand names of liberal permissive Hollywood driven culture than worships the newborn instead of the unborn.
Gawd, one more thing for me to feel white liberal guilt about.
:)
A thong.
but next to ari he looks positively saintly
good job by begala (as much as it pains me to give this poli-whore any props)
What was odd about that NYT piece is that they said many of our techniques were used by Communist China during the Korean war years, and even our own experts declared it illegal, and probably largely ineffectual, DURING the early '50.
And that no one researched it was incredible. I've written enough motions, petitions, case summaries etc when I was in college to know there's usually two entire sections on history, one on the history of the present case, and one for any backgrounds and precedents (which is then shepardized to see if it's still effectual laws and decisions) It's SOP.
History, unless it's HITLER/MOSSALINI/PINOCET/KISSENGER/STALIN is about the only history they're interested in. It's obvious that their only 'research' was to further their own PRECONCEIVED agenda, and the rest be damned.
You're assuming these 'lawyers' were the kind that learn/pass ALL of the normal requirements of a true, juror. Need I say Clarence Thomas?
I'll bet Ari's still not convinced that smoking causes cancer, either. For a party so full of moral certainty, they do find opportune moments to be filled with existential doubt, don't they?
Yeah, right. The same Department of Justice that was blatantly and remorselessly politicized by the Bush administration for eight long years, and is still stacked with Monica Goodling hirees. This canard passes neither the laugh test nor the smell test.
Begala could have and perhaps should have shifted gears on Fleischer, and nailed him on the corruption of DoJ issue too. BTW, where the hell has the investigation of that gone? Obama seems content even in leaving hyper-partisan Bush appointees in place such as US Attorney Mary Beth Buchanan, who hired Goodling. I don't see the change we can believe in there.
Let's assume that Obama doesn't want those appointees to have any real impact on DOJ direction and decisions. Would it be better to go through a political house-cleaning and draw attention from the opposition, or simply move those appointees to positions where they're pushing pencils and shuffling papers all day and won't have any real (& negative) impact?
I wholeheartedly agree.
A special prosecutor should be appointed now, without any more delay.
Maybe Ari should consider seceding from the Union.
George Bush just claimed to be a Texan. John Wayne just played a Texan.
Takes a tough hombre to be a real Texan.
http://www.tommytune.com/bio.htm
Spherical logic can be harmful to your health. Ari is entitled to believe that the torturers are innocent just as much as Paul is entitled to believe that they are guilty. The difference is that Paul has the Geneva Convention on his side whereas Ari just has his ass to hold on to.
Don't forget that the way the Shrub conspiracy likes to.
I love Paul Begala. Way to go....
Where's Ari's glasses?
He should at least put his monocle back on:
http://symonsez.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/k...
Ari was the GATE KEEPER FOR THE Bush/Cheney/Rove, Republican Congressional circle of evil..and he will be defending them until the last one is locked away...I HOPE AND PRAY!
Just the opinion of a life long disgusted, disapointed Republican...who voted them OUT OF POWER
I'm glad to hear from at least on sane Republican.
and I have a few friends who voted for bush twice...who want to see the entire bushco administration being brought up on war crimes, treason, tax evasion, whatever it takes to get them behind bars.
Oh and btw...they are pleaseantly surprised and happy with the job Obama's doin so far.
always good to hear things like that.
Not all republicans are crazy and dumb..just the majority of the ones they let us see on the teevee.
The rational, educated and reasonable one don't seem to make it on teevee..maybe because they aren't reactionary enough for the neo-cons who took over the party.
Wasn't Dick Cheney all over the news yesterday saying the Obama administration should release ALL the memos and documents related to this? I believe he thought it would show that there were times when torture gave them reliable, useful information but I'm confused since the rest of the republicans are shouting that just releasing the ones that were made public put the united states in grave grave grave grave danger.
How a persons mind works, Bagala made a statement, we executed Japanese soldiers for this crime and there was this long pause, between Arie and the last word and Arie, throws several non-sequitur facts together and tells Bagala, that Bagala concluded, this as Judge, jury and sentence.
Republicans in this instance and others, refuse to deal souley with the fact, they didn't protect America on 911, End, Stop... no fast forwards to speeches and keeping us safe, since 911, which they didn't (anthrax) but they just can't admit they failed on that day and at best they had less than 50, 50 record.
These people are despicable. No one is ever responsible for anything. It's the CIA, it's Bill Clinton, it's George Tenet, it's the Democrats in Congress, It's the Easter Rabbit.
The crimes were clearly committed, and until now acknowledged and even bragged about. Now when people of maturity and responsibility come into office and attempt to clean up yet another mess that Shrub and his conspirators left behind no one knows anything.
The Gop: party of illegal wars, liars, traitors, torturers,thugs and criminals.
Prosecute them all and hang the guilty one's with haste so we can regain our reputation and good name.
This whole thing makes me sick to my stomach.
I remember Bushie uttering the line about 'some terrorists were dealt with in a different way - we won't be getting any trouble from them anymore.' (I remember the smirk too - and the pause to slowly lick his reptilian lips. It sends a chill thinking about it.)
The fool went on national TV, at an official event, and bragged about being complicit in multiple homicides. If the US justice system can't bring a conviction with evidence like that at its disposal, what effing good is it?
Wed, 04/22/2009 - 11:06 — woodguy
These people are despicable. No one is ever responsible for anything. It's the CIA, it's Bill Clinton, it's George Tenet, it's the Democrats in Congress, It's the Easter Rabbit.
------------------------------------------------------------------
It's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy5THitqPBw
(these people are shitting their pants. Assholes like Ari are simply being sent out, and paid well to do so, to throw up smoke screens and muddy the discourse as much as possible. Might even work, too. Doesn't make them any less despicable)
... my ASS. You're a criminal, Fleischer, plain and simple.
Either Ari didn't know the history of this sort of torture or Paul sent him such a direct shot that Ari was caught with his verbal pants down.
Ari should have been prepared for Paul's statement because everyone with a brain and ears knows about the history now. He should have been ready with a comeback of some kind because only an idiot or a tv interviewer would fail to mention that fact.
How about waterboarding Fleischer, then asking him if it's torture..
Fleischer is a major a-hole.
FLEISCHER: Well, again, Paul, I guess you already are the jury, the prosecutor, the judge, and a citizen all rolled into one. You have already pronounced judgment that it is a crime.
No jerk. That's what your side does when they label all the Gitmo prisoners "terrorists" with no trials and no evidence. Water boarding has been determined to be torture by our own government. We don't need to go over it again every time it happens. And just because it's determined to be torture doesn't mean those accused of using it or ordering it's use won't get a fair trial. What a POS.
FLEISCHER: Well, again, Paul, I guess you already are the jury, the prosecutor, the judge, and a citizen all rolled into one. You have already pronounced judgment that it is a crime.
So, Congerss says water boarding is torture and a crime.
U.S. courts have ruled it's a crime
The Penagon says it's a crime
The U.N. say it's a crime
The Geniva Convention say's it's a crime
But Ari say's it's not because..........He says so!
WOW! What a great way to prove your opinion to be a fact simply by stating it.
Hey Ari, You're gay!
See now it's true because I said so.
Now, Blow Me.
Great comment!
Maybe someday we'll get a Paul Begala and Ari Fleischer Evening Brewski Show.
Ari so much as concluded the interview by saying to Paul, I know you are but what am I?
If republicans love torture so much, why don't they volunteer for torture demonstration
Trying to spin this on the Democrats in Congress who were "briefed" is preposterous. Suppose they would have said "This is wrong, don't do it." In what universe would BushCo have said, "OK"? I think we all know what "Dick" Cheney's response would have been. (Hint: 2 words, the first starts with "F" and the second one is "off".)
Some Dems were probably briefed because that was part of Repug insurance and whether those Dem's speaking out would have been effective or not, so what, they are culpable for not doing their sworn duty.. we need an independent prosecutor as soon as possible.
that the Republicans were in the majority at that time, and the "if your not with us, your with the terrorist" talk was in full bloom.
Just a minor point for historical accuracy.
I certainly wouldn't want to be blamed for "playing the blame game".
I would love to see cheney grilled by a tough prosecutor and no matter what cheney would claim, the prosecutor would say, So?
Or after each response the attorney could object to the answer on the grounds that Cheney was a proven serial liar, but keep asking questions anyway just to piss him off.
Seriously, this is a guy who objects to testifying under oath in that any question asked him is a de facto perjury trap. Pathological.
Who to prosecute? How far into this? "Is it the Democrats and Republicans on Capitol Hill who were briefed on it and didn't object to it?" says Ari first and then later says that, well then we'll have to try the Dems who were briefed too. This is one strategy for silencing- there are probably others.
There's no evidence for that, none at all.
The threat is usually the stronger position.. Ari doesn't say all Dems, he says those on Capitol Hill who were briefed and didn't object.
Kneepads Nancy was briefed, and don't believe for a moment, she wasn't. Since you're the one that says DINOS didn't know, weren't briefed..........do some of your own research before you try to tell us 'they didn't know' 'cause it sounds suspiciously like..'Who could have known.....'
There's no evidence for that, none at all.
There is some evidence, at least from their own say so like nancy pelosi.
But even then their memories vary. She said they were simply told that the administration considered these methods legal, with no discussion, no support staff, and no mention that they already had the program up and running.
that the Nuremberg Defense is even being mentioned, let alone considered. Even the Prez is bringing it up.
NO. Just NO. "Following orders" is NEVER an excuse. It doesn't matter if you're ordered to do it, or by whom, torturing people IS A FUCKING CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY. Don't give me "I had to do it 'cause they told me to". That's a weak-ass defense, and anyone with a conscience wouldn't even consider it. It's the defense of a coward who doesn't want to take responsibility for doing something horrendous. We don't play 'dat here.
Torture is torture, no matter who does it. It's against all the laws "of God and man" as they used to say. I don't care who did it or why. Prison. Big Time.
And take away their right to hold government office of ANY kind, EVER.
I think that there is a "just following orders" valid excuse for loww ranking field people that would have faced punishment or court marshall, but by all means, those responsible for the orders should be prosecuted.
...if I was this deceitful, fantasyland-kool aid drinking ass hole. Play the artful(less) game of semantics and word shuffling to try to confuse at the very least, and persuade at the very worst, that water boarding is just-A-OK with you (so long as it isn't done TO YOU!)
What a total douchebag!! This guy is such a sad and pathetic human being. Give him twenty more years, and he would make the perfect shoe in for darth vader, the ex-vp, soon-to-be-criminal.
And this is the guy who our neo-con Canadian Prime Minister has hired as a consultant to promote Canada to the USA. I feel so ashamed. PM Steven Harper has to go.
Aw, geez. That really sucks.
Not sure if I should stand up and shout or just crawl back into my winter cave for a few more years.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/04/16/pmo...
Harper disgusts me.
I'd like to take this opportunity thank the French for (generally) not voting Conservative.
..that Harper is a a Bush wannabe. Thank the moustached Canadian Tire guy (our vicarious God) that he's never led a majority government. Since his only utility was as the country's Bushlicker, I'm sure he can be dispatched forthwith in the next election.
So what do we do? Hold our breath and give that Iggy a majority? I'd accept that if the Green Party had near equal members with the NDP and together they equalled the conservative vote. Harper has to go. The Bloc I'm sure can see Harper as too cozy with the establishment of old. It will be a hard vote. Harper will count on a divided vote for the opposition and a well financed imported GOP-style marketing campaign.
I do believe we are seeing an influx of post-bush neo-cons seeking refuge in Canada. We have to watch out for that. You C&L folks keep an eye on things up here so we can smack down a few stray neo-cons.
I ex-patriated before the plundering horde got full power in 94, so, here, where I now live, I also, have noticed the rats fleeing the ship they sank, trying to pretend they're Independants and cover their asses. Look out, rest of the world, this is Globalilzation of the newest version of HITLER. They're becoming radioactive in the US of BLOODYISRAEL, so, going to go prey on the innocent in countries, where their names and faces aren't as familiar.
My friend just went into bank and made off with over $200,000 in cash!
And it is not a crime.
Why?
Because.
That's why.
Yeah, but the CEO took 30 times as much.
loss caused by TeaEyeIs friend.
for the same reason that Goebbels would have been...
[Deleted. Please do not advocate violence on this site-Sitemonitor]
I seriously despise that motherfucker.
Everything that comes out of his mouth is pure bullshit.
I don't think there is any "putting the evil torture Genie back in the bottle" now. We should ivestigate, because it is the right thing to do, but there are a couple other benefits to this.
MSM has something to focus on besides FOX talking points......
and, #1 (drumroll please) When asked for his opinion, Cheney will have to respond, "I'm sorry, but that is the focus of an ongoing investigation I am under. I can not comment" (bells, whistles, and thunderous applause)
"the only people who are in a position to make an authoritative judgment on it should be career, independent-minded people at the Department of Justice"
Oh good. I'm waiting on the decision if blue is blue as well. That's always confused me.
I have been hearing that it was execution but I'll go with 15 years hard labor. I think Cheney's heart will burst after about minutes of this so called "hard labor".
as other countries?
The U.S. is allowed to have and use nukes, but nobody else.
The U.S. is allowed to unilaterally invade countries, but nobody else.
The U.S. is allowed to keep people detained without a trial, but nobody else.
The U.S. is allowed to commit genocide, but nobody else.
And on and on.
Karma's going to be a bitch when it finally DOES come around.
Ari's never heard of the word LEGAL PRECEDENCE. The judge, jury, and prosecutors decided this LONG ago.
Can we please get this major asshole OFF the air!
The International Military Tribunal for the Far East (IMTFE) sentenced Japanese to death for permitting torture, including waterboarding. Those IMTFE defendants, Kenji Doihara, Seishiro Itagaki, Heitaro Kimura, Akira Muto and Hideki Tojo, were convicted of Count 54 among others and were all sentenced to death by hanging. Count 54 includes ordering, authorizing, and permitting the commission of war crimes including torture.
Fleischer also loved sucking Bush and that's a damn crime too.
Fleischer is so pathetic! His left eye is almost twitching because he's scared shit-less about things finally coming out about this! He is such a kiss ass coward.
Login or Register to post comments.